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Thread: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page [Fixed 12.11]

  1. #31
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    Re: Separate Payroll Expenses from Total Expenses

    Right, it is. Part of the picture here is that all expenses are only deducted during the regular season. You pay nothing prior to or after the regular season, even if you're playing playoff games. You do gain revenue from playoff games... all of it, since you're not playing expenses at all, which does mess up the projections and what has been earned. I've noticed that as a problem myself, in the past.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  2. #32
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    Re: Separate Payroll Expenses from Total Expenses

    I don't 100% understand your post

    The problem isn't with the revenue it's with the Payroll Expense.

    Payroll Expense should be 60.7 million, should it not?

  3. #33
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    Re: Separate Payroll Expenses from Total Expenses

    No... I see $58,242,888
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  4. #34
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    Re: Separate Payroll Expenses from Total Expenses

    You see that on the expenses screen. But to the right of that, circled in red Team Payroll is 60.8 million. Also, if you add sum up the salaries of all the players as listed in the sortable stats (as I did in the uploaded excel sheet) it totals to 60.8 million.

  5. #35
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    Re: Separate Payroll Expenses from Total Expenses

    So, I guess my question is:

    Why do you think $58.2 million is the payroll?

    Right next to it it says "Team Payroll 60.8 million". And if I sum up each players' yearly salary it totals 60.8 million. That, logically, would seem to be the team payroll.

    Also, at the end of the season, without making ANY additions or subtractions to the team in terms of players or any payroll changing, the actual payroll paid out was still only 57.8 million.

  6. #36
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    Hallelujah! Somebody recognized this as a bug. Which has the side effect of meaning that I have the ability to do simple math.

    I'd also like to point out that not only does payroll differ on the expense dialogue and the finance page, but it also affects a few other things.

    1st, cash. Since payroll expense is incorrectly deducted each game, profit and cash are both overstated each game.

    2nd, possibly the AI. Since the AI doesn't consider cash only revenue and expense, if expenses are undercalculated it puts the AI at ANOTHER disadvantage. IF the AI uses the payroll number from the finances screen (which is the CORRECT payroll) then it isn't fully using it's resources as the difference just goes to excess cash.

    I think this is a huge bug since it effects the ENTIRE financial aspect of the game. I'd also hope it was an 'easy fix' (but maybe a harder find) since it's probably just a math error or forgetting to include some salaries somewhere.

  7. #37
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    Yea... me!


    Anyway, there were two threads in here already. I simply merged the three threads (the two here and the one in Suggestions) to be this thread.
    I don't think that there's anything really wrong, but I don't really have the time to look right now. My best guess is that what's in the Expenses page is correct. I think that what's displayed on the sidebar and on the finance page is suffering from a series of rounding errors. ...or, nothing is wrong. I'm still not positive if the minor league payroll numbers are supposed to be in both places or not.

    I know absolutely positively that the AI is receiving the proper payroll figures, at least. I've done some profiling on the AI, so that I can at least speak about definitively.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  8. #38
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    Quote Originally Posted by ohms_law View Post
    My best guess is that what's in the Expenses page is correct. I think that what's displayed on the sidebar and on the finance page is suffering from a series of rounding errors. ...or, nothing is wrong. I'm still not positive if the minor league payroll numbers are supposed to be in both places or not.

    I know absolutely positively that the AI is receiving the proper payroll figures, at least. I've done some profiling on the AI, so that I can at least speak about definitively.
    I respectfully disagree. I'll try to show it even more clearly.

    This time I edited all my players' salaries to $1,000,000 and released everyone not on the major league roster. So, I had 25 players each making $1 million a year.

    I eliminated injuries and trades and immediately released my draft picks so no salary entered, left, or otherwise varied on my roster.

    That means I should pay $25 million in salary for one year, correct?

    I didn't. I only paid $24,846,325.

    I see two options

    A) BM is not correctly paying out player salaries
    B) There is something quite unintuitive about a $1,000,000 one year contract


    The following screen shot is to show that 25 players were signed at $1,000,000 each and that that should result in a one year payroll expense of $25 million


    The second shot shows that the expenses dialogue projects me to pay just over $25 million despite the fact that it should be $25 million


    Showing that drafted players were immediately released and did not effect the payroll


    After 162 games were played. $25 million WAS NOT paid. Only $24,846,325.


    You can also see that it is not just a display error. I set my beginning cash to 0. Revenue of 108,048,781 - 25,000,000 is not equal to 83,202,456. The cash number comes from the incorrect (in my opinion) subtraction of the $24,806,325.

    Again, I'm not trying to just keep beating on a dead horse. It's just this inconsistency in Mogul has bothered me ever since I first started playing. If the game is working correctly, as you keep saying, I'd like to know for my own piece of mind how 25 $1 million dollar salaries come out being $24.8 million, and if it's not working correctly...well, I guess it would be good if it was fixed.

  9. #39
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    Just finished another season and this is still driving me crazy.

  10. #40
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    So, nobody can explain (or try to explain) why $25 million divided by 162 games = $24.8 million?

  11. #41
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    Rounding error
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  12. #42
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    I can actually -almost- believe that.

    If it is a rounding error then I still think it needs to be worked on. As noted in this previous example, the error caused team payroll to be underpaid by about $3,000,000. Which is 3%. Which is a DAMN BIG rounding error.

  13. #43
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    Recursive rounding...
    And, from what I can see, it's only a display issue. The money is actually accounted for, it's simply not displayed correctly.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  14. #44
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showpos...5&postcount=38

    From this post (again) I don't see how that can be

    You can also see that it is not just a display error. I set my beginning cash to 0. Revenue of 108,048,781 - 25,000,000 is not equal to 83,202,456. The cash number comes from the incorrect (in my opinion) subtraction of the $24,806,325.

  15. #45
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    Re: 11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page

    filihok, I for one can follow your logic exactly. I don't think it is a display error either.

    It is not likely rounding. For one thing if it was traditional rounding then the errors would be minimized over many computations and tend to be close to the actual. Secondly, if it was a traditional rounding error, we should see discrepancies in BOTH directions. It does not matter in your example whether you work with the sum of individual salaries or the gross. It is tough to get that far off. Try it.

    It may be that the program simply drops the last digit that it carries (integer function). This would tend to produce results in only one direction. Even so, 1,000,000 divided by 162 = 6172.8395 per game. Please note that you will not be able to drop digits to be able to calc a number close to 24,846,325.

    6170 is too much, 6100 is too little. Interesting that the number required to be multiplied by 162 and get 24,846,325 is almost exactly halfway between 6100 & 6170...being 6134.8951.

    Now if you run your same simulation paying the players 10,000,000 each will the payroll be off by the same percentage - meaning it will report payroll of 248,463,250, or close to it? I think that if it is off by the same percentage then the program could not be using the same placeholder to round, and therefore it cannot be rounding.

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