Steroids

[RedsoxRockies]

Ohms said Communist!! Where!?!?! Who is the Communist? Is it you Houston!?!

[RickD]

Yankees!

[dps]

The biggest farse in baseball history happened one year ago. In case you don't know it was Bonds breaking the home run record.

So you're trying to top it with your spelling?

[Arctic Blast]

I dunno...I sort of think maybe the debate is basically played out. I think everyone made good points but, let's face it, neither side is going to sway the other side, and we're all just sort of rehashing the same things over and over again.

[rogue9]

Can we have a ban on Bonds discussions?

only if we can have a ban on Yankee homers post padding.

[koolzach1]

only if we can have a ban on Yankee homers post padding.

What a very classless post.

[HoustonGM]

This was fun.

[dickay]

This was fun.

I agree..however it was also sad, depressing, and downright scary.

[OldFatGuy]

I agree..however it was also sad, depressing, and downright scary.

Yep, my sentiments exactly.

[HoustonGM]

Yep, my sentiments exactly.

Yep.

[filihok]

What scares me is that people get so worked up about these issues that they end up taking things personally and fail to even hear the points other people are making.

I'm on the fence about drug legalization. I agree with a lot of the logic behind it. The point that I was arguing was about personal freedom.

OFG said something about admitting I didn't believe in personal freedoms or responsibility. That is flat out untrue. Individuals have the ultimate choices regarding their lives. They make thier decisions and should face the consequences of those decisions. But as individuals we don't exist in a vacuum. We have some responsibility to the other people on this planet as well.

[OldFatGuy]

What scares me is that people get so worked up about these issues that they end up taking things personally and fail to even hear the points other people are making.

I'm on the fence about drug legalization. I agree with a lot of the logic behind it. The point that I was arguing was about personal freedom.

OFG said something about admitting I didn't believe in personal freedoms or responsibility. That is flat out untrue. Individuals have the ultimate choices regarding their lives. They make thier decisions and should face the consequences of those decisions. But as individuals we don't exist in a vacuum. We have some responsibility to the other people on this planet as well.

First of all, I didn't single you out. Secondly, I read your responses and really thought you were joking. I pointed out, repeatedly, my definition of personal freedom. Yes, it lives on a spectrum, and that spectrum goes all the way from total freedom (anarchy) to complete ownership (total slave).

I never considered my definition to be anywhere hear anarchy, and thus thought you were joking. OK, lets look at your examples. Nuclear missiles and hand grenades? There SOLE PURPOSE is to endanger others lives and property. Remember, I said personal freedom meant we should be free to do whatever we want, as adults, so long as we don't endanger the lives, safety, or property of others. So, of course nuclear weapons, hand grenades, chemical, biological, and pretty much all military weapons should be banned. Do I really need to state that?

We should go as far towards that as is practically possible. I just don't consider your examples to be serious challenges to that definition, in that the other examples all involved minors, and I have never and will never suggest that they get all the rights of adults.

Dickay wants to harp on the availability, and not the responsibility. Again, we know thousands are going to die on our highways every year, yet we don't consider banning the manufacture and sale of automobiles. Why? Because if used responsibly, they are not a danger.

Guns are going to kill thousands next year. Again, we don't ban this even though we know the mere availability of the guns is going to result in SOME people doing BAD things (irresponible things) resulting in death, despair, and wrecked lives.

Why do we allow these things KNOWING FULL WELL people are going to die, get maimed, and have their lives wrecked? Because of the concept of personal freedom and responsibility. You are free to own a gun, but you are responsible if you use it improperly.

The same should be true for drugs. Some people will use them improperly, and when they do, they should be held accountable. Just like alcohol; some people consume a couple of glasses of wine with their meal at night, never get behind the wheel of a car, and they ENJOY those glasses of wine, without ever endangering anyone else's safety or property. That's freedom, with responsibility. If another person can't stop at two glasses of wine, and can't refrain from getting behind the wheel of a car, then THAT person should be held accountable. I'm not even going to say the same should be true with drugs, because alcohol IS a drug. As is caffeine, nicotine, and about a hundred or so other ones that ARE legal.

The part that is sad and depressing is that there are millions of folks who really believe that they, not you or I, know what's better for us than us. Where that arrogance comes from, I don't know, nor care. They think they can tell us what drug we can enjoy at night with our meal (caffeine and alcohol are ok, but you really can't handle coke or pot, no no no). If you want to have a relationship for the rest of your life with someone you love, that's fine as long as it meets MY criteria (i.e. heterosexual). And I know better than you what kind of sexual acts you and any potential willing partner can perform, so I'll pass laws regarding that as well. (In my state, VA, it is ILLEGAL for a man and woman, even if married, to engage in oral sex, ILLEGAL). Those are the ones that don't believe in personal freedom, and I'm going to call them out on it.

The really scary part about all of this is the continuum you spoke of. Because we are, day by day, (especially after 9/11), moving further and further along that spectrum from freedom to a police state. I've been stationed in other countries and have seen the differences, and I will fight until my last breath to keep it from happening, but its really sad when we not only allow it to happen, we actually condone it.

Folks my father's age (with their wits still about them) roll their eyes when I discuss with them things like how we (America) now openly discuss imprisoning an American citizen on American soil without charges or access to a lawyer or without even being charged with a crime, how we openly discuss spying on our conversations without so much as a warrant, how we openly discuss torture and the merits thereof. The slider is already moving, and the really sad thing is that though each of these sounds like an inch here or an inch there, before you even know you look up and you're so far away from freedom and toward a police state that its now too late to turn back.

[HoustonGM]

Well said OFG.

[MeetDaMets]

Oh, come on... Are we really going to just drag the conversation down to the level of "save the children"?

Wave hands side to side in tempo

"Save the orphans ... ah ah ah ah ...
Save the orphans ... ah ah ah ah ..."

[RickD]

We interupt this thread to add nothing to the conversation.

We now return you to your regular thread.

Steroids are wrong when used to enhance athletic performance. However banning steroids is wrong however as some do need then for medical purposes.

I just wanted to throw that in so y'all wouldn't think I can only talk about the Yankees. However the Yankees should not use steroids and I will be glad when Giambi is gone as I've never cared for him anyway and feel he is tainted.