Steroids

[OldFatGuy]

Well, I was prepared to leave it alone, and then you throw a pile of bullcrap into this so high waders wouldn't be deep enough, and the only thing I can assume is that was planned to wait until no one would respond.

At a minimum, I hope I got you to at least reframe your gun and auto future arguments....as they didn't suit the purpose you intended because their usage is not entirely legal in any way.

NO, the points I made were actually dead on. And if this is really too complicated for you to understand, try this. Read my original points and instead of automobiles insert the words "GM's, Chryslers, Toyotas, Hondas, etc. in its place. Still don't get it? Here.

"Dickay wants to harp on the availability, and not the responsibility. Again, we know thousands are going to die on our highways every year, yet we don't consider banning the manufacture and sale of GM's, Chryslers, Toyotas, Hondas, etc. Why? Because if used responsibly, they are not a danger. "

Want to try again? Replace the word guns with "Semi-automatic rifles, handguns and shotguns" and read it again.

Semi-automatic rifles, handguns and shotguns are going to kill thousands next year. Again, we don't ban this even though we know the mere availability of the Semi-automatic rifles, handguns and shotguns is going to result in SOME people doing BAD things (irresponible things) resulting in death, despair, and wrecked lives.

Do you really have to resort to distortion to make your points?

Actually, those ideals are not communist in any way...

No, actually, Dickay, putting the interests of society above the interests of the individual, is EXACTLY what was behind communism. You should read all about it when you get the chance.

Now, I've stated before while it's obvious we're never going to agree, I've also stated that I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem with you forcing your view on me through the passage of laws, and I really wish you would honestly entertain the notion of just how upset you would be if I managed to pass a law that forced you to consume a drug daily, or fire a weapon daily, or whatever. But, that's the difference between us. I would never try and force my views on you. Never.

And if you think this is absurd, there was a town in the news last year that passed an ordinance REQUIRING that all citizens of that town MUST OWN A GUN. I'm not making that up. So suppose some hippie commune town passed a law REQUIRING that all citizens MUST OWN marijuana plants. It's just as preposterous to have government force something like that on us as it is to prevent us from making our own choices as adults.

So where does that leave us?? Do you really want to just keep this thread going forever or are we going to quit?

[dickay]

No, actually, Dickay, putting the interests of society above the interests of the individual, is EXACTLY what was behind communism. You should read all about it when you get the chance.

When it comes to safety & security the government is required to put the interests of society above the interests of the individual. It is why you have to apply to the health department and meet stringent standards to sell food and the like, it is why you can go to the grocery store and get food which is for the most part safer than anywhere else in the world. It is why you have safe drinking water. Sure you smoking a joint in the basement harms nobody. You growing some food in the garden and giving it to the neighbor is usually harmless. But if distribution of these things were without law its proven time and time again that they are dangerous to our safety and security. Even the changes you've made to your rediculous car argument refuses to acknowledge that we set stringent safety standards and laws to protect society (ie. filliojoks stop sign example for one). Is enough done, well now that is debatable. Those are just a few of the many small little luxury our government provides that apparently you overlook. That is not communism.

But yes, I suppose we are getting nowhere. Enjoy the last word.

[HoustonGM]

I'll just point out that nobody is arguing that drugs be legalized and have no laws at all regarding them.

[ohms_law]

Ok... I'm calm... That and I think OFG is right, just letting this go is probably the wrong way to go about things.

When it comes to safety & security the government is required to put the interests of society above the interests of the individual.

No, absolutely incorrect. It's the Governments responsibility to provide oversight and ensure that safety and security are possible. It is absolutely not their responsibility to ensure safety and security. As citizens, it is our responsibility to ensure our own safety and security, or not to do so, as we see fit.

If an individual, group, or company intentionally attempts to cause harm, taking care of that is the responsibility of the Government. Governments that actively attempt to prevent such activities have a name: Despotism.

Anyway, this is clearly a political discussion, even if it is rooted in a sports topic, so I'm moving it to Ejections.

[RickD]

I'm so confused....Barry Bonds = Politics.......where am I?

[JeepGuy63]

I'm so confused....Barry Bonds = Politics.......where am I?

British Columbia, Canada

[RickD]

Oh thanks....

[ohms_law]

hehe
Barry Bonds exited this conversation 3 pages ago...

[RickD]

Where'd He go?

Sorry just hoping to keep the conversation relaxed.

[JeepGuy63]

Oh thanks....

You're welcome. Just being friendly to one of our northen neighbors.

[dickay]

I'll just point out that nobody is arguing that drugs be legalized and have no laws at all regarding them.

Actually, that is what old fat guy has referred to, and i'll say that most of my argument has been geared to what Ohms has referred to in the past as govt. controlled sale of drugs, or what you and he have said should be doctors sale or a legalization 'with laws and restrictions'. As stated many times, this have been attempted many times, alcohol and tobacco are two glaring proofs that it does not work. Addiction and sales to minors skyrocket, along with crime and health issues. The vicotin and oxycodine argument is another you fail to address...powerful drugs again controlled but legal with restrictions and becoming more and more abused. I'm not saying whats being done with vicotin and oxycodine is wrong (the prescription usage that is), i'm just saying that there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to have crack cocaine and other powerful and dangerous drugs legalized in any manner.

Ok... I'm calm... That and I think OFG is right, just letting this go is probably the wrong way to go about things.

No, absolutely incorrect. It's the Governments responsibility to provide oversight and ensure that safety and security are possible. It is absolutely not their responsibility to ensure safety and security. As citizens, it is our responsibility to ensure our own safety and security, or not to do so, as we see fit.

If an individual, group, or company intentionally attempts to cause harm, taking care of that is the responsibility of the Government. Governments that actively attempt to prevent such activities have a name: Despotism.

Anyway, this is clearly a political discussion, even if it is rooted in a sports topic, so I'm moving it to Ejections.

Right...so lets get rid of the military, police, fbi, cia, fire department, fda, and stop building water treatment facilities, maintaining roadways, monitoring food handling, airport security and the millions of other things our govt. does to provide us an environment to pursue happiness and enjoy freedom.

Believe me, I don't like govt. agencies and intrusion either.....but you are wrong, public safety IS one of the few things we as Americans request of our govt. and is one of their few responsibilities.

I really don't wish to continue this, and unlike you all...now that I say i'm done I truly am done. Rather than answer the one question posed repeatedly....you prefer to twist these arguments into dozens of dizzying directions.

I leave you again with the question posed earlier.....and will leave your answers and responses as the final word as I'm sure rebutting them will be a larger waste of my time. Related to steroids in general;

Even while illegal, their popularity over the past 20 years has grown immensely.....thus their availability has grown and has trickled down to those who use it irresponsibly, and even worse to our youth. Those are all undisputed facts. How would legalizing them in any way curb that trend?? Houston??

[ohms_law]

As stated many times, this have been attempted many times, alcohol and tobacco are two glaring proofs that it does not work.

I'm curious as to why you think putting Alcohol and Tobacco up as examples of "this not working" is an effective argument. You never drink? Do you believe that Prohibition worked, or was effective at all?

Offering Alcohol or Tobacco as examples of the way not controlling drug use is harmful sure is interesting though. You do realize that Organized Crime in the US came about as a direct result of Prohibition, don't you?

I'm not about to go calling anyone specifically "stupid", "Communist" or anything like that (and I apologize for name calling, it was uncalled for). However, really it's rather ignorant and self serving to be able to ignore the example that Prohibition provides, or to be able to ignore the effects of the current "War on Drugs". I suppose that throwing millions of otherwise law abiding, non-violent citizens into prison is a good thing?

Addiction and sales to minors skyrocket, along with crime and health issues.

I'm getting really tired of seeing this. Prove it, please.

The vicotin and oxycodine argument is another you fail to address...powerful drugs again controlled but legal with restrictions and becoming more and more abused.

...and? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The reason that prescription drugs are abused is primarily because drugs are illegal! What about treating the actual problem? Besides, where would people be getting Oxycotin and Vicoden illegally if there were no street vendors?

Right...so lets get rid of the military, police, fbi, cia, fire department, fda, and stop building water treatment facilities, maintaining roadways, monitoring food handling, airport security and the millions of other things our govt. does to provide us an environment to pursue happiness and enjoy freedom.

I'll be the first to admit that, were it up to me, Federal funding for every single one of the programs that you mentioned here would be severely restricted (gradually, though). Having these huge departments at the Federal level is not a good thing. 3/4 of what the FBI does should be taken care of at the State level and through National programs. The CIA, NSA, and FBI can all share quite a bit of their resources, and be much more efficient and effective at what they should primarily be doing anyway. Fire Departments (and Police Departments) are State and Local programs anyway, so that's a non-issue. Same with water treatment and road maintenance (although they all receive some Federal funding, which is ridiculous, but that's a different debate). Anyway, I'm getting off on a tangent here and this whole paragraph and the remainder of your post appears to be designed to be inflammatory. Never mind the fact that you've completely ignored the point that I was originally making.

[ohms_law]

heh

I just had to post this:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ies-with-barr/

"Regarding the drug war, I've been there, done that, and know firsthand our current strategy is not working," said Mr. Barr.

"Continuing to have the federal government run roughshod over the states, even if the citizens of a state decide they wish to legalize medicinal marijuana, for example, is wrong," he said.

It kind of says something when even the staunchest Drug War supporters abandon the cause, don't you think?

[Arctic Blast]

heh

I just had to post this:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ies-with-barr/


It kind of says something when even the staunchest Drug War supporters abandon the cause, don't you think?

Well, I mean, it's pretty apparent it isn't working. Let's see...yep, drug use and drug-fueled crime continues to be a problem, and drug cartels continue to foment massive violence in South America and Central Asia. Of course, there's only been...oh, let's go with somewhere around 500 billion spent on it globally...

[MeetDaMets]

more evidence of just how "harmless" steroids are.

http://news.aol.com/health/article/a...275x1200412857

"save the orphans ah ah ah ah"