Steroids

[HoustonGM]

Why are steroids wrong when used to enhance athletic performance? I know that, as they are banned, athletes shouldn't use them, and thus it's "wrong" in that sense...but what makes taking a substance to improve your performance WRONG? Caffeine improves performance in a similar manner as amphetamines, on a smaller scale, and nobody's going to call for preventing athletes from having a cup of coffee before the game.

I just find it hypocritical that we blindly accept some steroids (cortisone) and some drugs that enhance performance, but then act as if other steroids and drugs are the product of the devil.

[dickay]

Dickay wants to harp on the availability, and not the responsibility. Again, we know thousands are going to die on our highways every year, yet we don't consider banning the manufacture and sale of automobiles. Why? Because if used responsibly, they are not a danger.

We do ban the sale of certain automobiles. Legal road worthy vehicles must meet certain requirements.....hence the reason the cars driven at the Indy 500 aren't on our roadways. There are a number of laws on the books to curb automobile accidents and millions spent on enforcement. Not nearly enough IMO...but you act as if these facts aren't true. Just as some drugs are legal, and some are not...some cars are legal, and some are not.

Guns are going to kill thousands next year. Again, we don't ban this even though we know the mere availability of the guns is going to result in SOME people doing BAD things (irresponible things) resulting in death, despair, and wrecked lives.

The US Govt. actually has banned many types of guns. Fully automatic rifles, limitation on clips in hand guns...etc.etc.etc. Legally acquiring a hand gun at least is a much more difficult process now than it was years ago. Again, your examples refuse to acknowledge these. As I mentioned earlier, guns are ingrained in our society and efforts to eliminate them equaled political suicide. This is definetely an issue I am far more moderate on than many conservatives.....I don't like the fact hand guns are so readily available. Proves the point that even if the govt. tries to regulate drugs for 'responsible use' by prescription or adult sales that they will still be obtained illegally. If guns were TOTALLY uncontrolled the problem would be FAR FAR worse than it is today. That is undeniably the truth.

Again.....we as a society have made these mistakes over and over and over again. Legalizing alcohol and tobacco have proven that increased availability equals increased addiction, equals increased crime and increased jail population that ohms is worried about.....which effects mine and your personal freedoms you refer to. That is just one of the negative impacts they have on society. Again...who bought you alcohol when you were a minor. Alcohol and tobacco, and even guns however are ingrained in our society and no politician will ever change that. I'm one who doesn't want to see the same mistakes made yet again, and more and more of our personal freedoms taken away...ie crime, additional taxes due to the health related burden on society, increase in workplace injuries and decrease in production, our youth getting even greater availability to these dangerous drugs.

Pain killers are another perfect example. Even with the need of a doctors prescription they are still obtained illegally and sold on the black market...hugely addictive and dangerous to our society.

[RickD]

Why are steroids wrong when used to enhance athletic performance? I know that, as they are banned, athletes shouldn't use them, and thus it's "wrong" in that sense....

You nailed it for me. It's wrong because it's banned. If it was legal than what can you do. Even when used for medical purposes there are severe long term side effects that people should be aware of...I use steroid inhalors for asthma and have had steroid shots for medical reasons....I try not to do either often.

[dickay]

You nailed it for me. It's wrong because it's banned. If it was legal than what can you do. Even when used for medical purposes there are severe long term side effects that people should be aware of...I use steroid inhalors for asthma and have had steroid shots for medical reasons....I try not to do either often.

Even while illegal, their popularity over the past 20 years has grown immensely.....thus their availability has grown and has trickled down to those who use it irresponsibly, and even worse to our youth. Those are all undisputed facts. How would legalizing them in any way curb that trend?? Houston??

[HoustonGM]

You nailed it for me. It's wrong because it's banned. If it was legal than what can you do.

Yeah, but that's not what the discussion is about. We know it's against the rules, and that breaking the rules in a game is wrong...but the debate is, SHOULD it be against the rules?

Even when used for medical purposes there are severe long term side effects that people should be aware of...

As OFG mentioned earlier in the thread, there's been studys showing its effects on children and women, but nothing conclusive regarding adult men.

[HoustonGM]

Even while illegal, their popularity over the past 20 years has grown immensely.....thus their availability has grown and has trickled down to those who use it irresponsibly, and even worse to our youth. Those are all undisputed facts. How would legalizing them in any way curb that trend?? Houston??

Look, as with ohms, I'm pretty much done with this argument, as we've rehashed it in tons of threads every couple of weeks, and it goes nowhere because we have fundamentally different beliefs about what works.

[dickay]

As OFG mentioned earlier in the thread, there's been studys showing its effects on children and women, but nothing conclusive regarding adult men.

And all this depends on who you talk to. There are also hundreds of medical professionals on record saying the contrary. None the less.....my main concern is the trickle down to our youth. Alcohol is safe when used in moderation by adults....problem is, its availability has unquestionably caused many problems amongst adults and children over the years.

[RickD]

Yeah, but that's not what the discussion is about.

Actually the discussion started about Bonds one year ago...and explded from there...I just thought I would weigh in....now I'm out as I really don't want to do another steroid discussion thread.

Figured I would add a serious thought in the middle of my Yankee rants.

[dickay]

Look, as with ohms, I'm pretty much done with this argument, as we've rehashed it in tons of threads every couple of weeks, and it goes nowhere because we have fundamentally different beliefs about what works.

Cmon....you guys have never once addressed that question, and have avoided it adnauseum.

[filihok]

OFG, I'm once again in 95% concurrence with you.

RE Nuclear Missles: That got in there because I was a having a side conversation with a co-worker about Iraq and Afghanistan and the ultimate target being Iran. I had nuclear missiles on the brain. The stop sign example was probably better. As for the age. Of course children and adults should be treated differently. I was just pointing out the fact that we DO allow for the restriction of personal freedoms.

That said, a nuclear missile in my back yard is safe so long as it's properly operated. Just as substances can be safe as long as they are used responsibly.

As i stated in another post, there are plenty of individuals who pose no threat to anyone regardless of the substances that they choose to ingest. However, there are obviously those individuals that cannot safely use these substances. The problem is people see things in two ways

1) drugs are legal and we punish offenders AFTER some horrific act has been committed.
2) drugs are illegal and we try to prevent the horrific acts from happening.

Both have their plusses and minuses (quite simplified).

Scenario 1) People should have freedom to do to their bodies what they want-plus. We are waiting until AFTER the act to do get invovled-minus.

Secnario 2) If we can prevent tragedies, that's good-plus. We have to limit people's choices-bad.

As you pointed out there is too much federal legislation. Freedom and choices are severly limited. You're in VA where orel sex is illegal, I've personally broken that law. I lived in Maryland where a rare steak was illegal. I now live in DC where the gun ban was just found unconstitutional.

These need to be state issues. That would allow people the freedom to choose.

If people want to live in a gun-free society, they should be allowed. If people feel the need to protect themselves with guns, they should be allowd. But it's pretty damn hard for both of these to exist in the same place.

There are issues that people are not goign to agree on. So we should be given choices.

[HoustonGM]

No, we haven't. And I'm done with this. Feel free to read through this thread and the countless other threads to see responses to that question. I'm out of this now though.

[dickay]

No, we haven't. And I'm done with this. Feel free to read through this thread and the countless other threads to see responses to that question. I'm out of this now though.

Right

[RickD]

Yankees!

[OldFatGuy]

We do ban the sale of certain automobiles. Legal road worthy vehicles must meet certain requirements.....hence the reason the cars driven at the Indy 500 aren't on our roadways. There are a number of laws on the books to curb automobile accidents and millions spent on enforcement. Not nearly enough IMO...but you act as if these facts aren't true. Just as some drugs are legal, and some are not...some cars are legal, and some are not.



The US Govt. actually has banned many types of guns. Fully automatic rifles, limitation on clips in hand guns...etc.etc.etc. Legally acquiring a hand gun at least is a much more difficult process now than it was years ago. Again, your examples refuse to acknowledge these. As I mentioned earlier, guns are ingrained in our society and efforts to eliminate them equaled political suicide. This is definetely an issue I am far more moderate on than many conservatives.....I don't like the fact hand guns are so readily available. Proves the point that even if the govt. tries to regulate drugs for 'responsible use' by prescription or adult sales that they will still be obtained illegally. If guns were TOTALLY uncontrolled the problem would be FAR FAR worse than it is today. That is undeniably the truth.

Again.....we as a society have made these mistakes over and over and over again. Legalizing alcohol and tobacco have proven that increased availability equals increased addiction, equals increased crime and increased jail population that ohms is worried about.....which effects mine and your personal freedoms you refer to. That is just one of the negative impacts they have on society. Again...who bought you alcohol when you were a minor. Alcohol and tobacco, and even guns however are ingrained in our society and no politician will ever change that. I'm one who doesn't want to see the same mistakes made yet again, and more and more of our personal freedoms taken away...ie crime, additional taxes due to the health related burden on society, increase in workplace injuries and decrease in production, our youth getting even greater availability to these dangerous drugs.

Pain killers are another perfect example. Even with the need of a doctors prescription they are still obtained illegally and sold on the black market...hugely addictive and dangerous to our society.

Dickay, those are all valid points, but each makes the case for putting the interests of society ahead of the interests of the individual. There is a word for this, (HINT: It begins with C) and its been used in this thread already, so I'm sure those reading know exactly what it is.

It's your right to belive in that philosophy, mine to fight it.

There are issues that people are not goign to agree on. So we should be given choices.

I agree. I even respect Dickay's point of view. But where he and others like him lose me is they don't believe in those choices. If I believed pot was God's gift to man, and tried to pass a law requiring every American smoke pot once a day, he and they would rightfully be outraged. Yet they don't mind one iota passing laws forcing their view of the world on me. That's arrogant, disprespectful, and not in keeping with the framework of American freedom.

Like Ohms and Houston, I'm done with this thread too. I'm old and have seen the way this country is moving (it was moving this way before 9/11, that just sped things up), and I don't like it. But I could post in this thread every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week......, and it will change nothing.

I will, however, continue to respect others point of view, and will not try and impose my world view on them. Too bad that's not a universal belief.

Have a great day.

[dickay]

Dickay, those are all valid points, but each makes the case for putting the interests of society ahead of the interests of the individual. There is a word for this, (HINT: It begins with C) and its been used in this thread already, so I'm sure those reading know exactly what it is.

That's arrogant, disprespectful, and not in keeping with the framework of American freedom.

Actually, those ideals are not communist in any way...and are in fact the requirements of our American Government as set forth by our founding fathers. Your views seem more towards a lawless society, and in no way did our forefathers design or intend to design that.

At a minimum, I hope I got you to at least reframe your gun and auto future arguments....as they didn't suit the purpose you intended because their usage is not entirely legal in any way.

Good day to you to.