Is Edgar Martinez a Hall of Famer?

[RedsoxRockies]

Agreed

[dickay]

Shouldn't they, though?

I think they should...but I also base my decision on Edgar getting in on prior HOF precedent. If you had to vote and had to weigh what the HOF means, wouldn't the precedent that prior voters have started be a big part of your vote?

[HoustonGM]

I think they should...but I also base my decision on Edgar getting in on prior HOF precedent. If you had to vote and had to weigh what the HOF means, wouldn't the precedent that prior voters have started be a big part of your vote?

There is no precedent for a player that played nearly his entire career as a DH. Molitor is the closest to that, and he still played more games in the field than as a DH, and reached 3,000 hits, making him a lock no matter what. Edgar is the first case like himself.

[dickay]

Or, wasn't given the chance to play enough when he was young.


His career wasn't cut short by injury. It was relatively short because he didn't become a fulltime player until he was 27.

But he also had a number of injuries throughout his career is what I"m referring to.

He wasn't a fulltime player possibly because he wasn't worthy of it prior? I'm not saying roids brought him to that (although i'm thinking it), but maybe later in life things clicked. Maybe he got lasik? I don't know. But the fact he wasn't a full time player prior has to be considered. Being a HOF'er is alot about longevity. Roger Maris had the alltime season HR record for alot of years...he's not in the HOF. OK...so you say its not about one season, what then is it about..2, 5, 10?? How many?

Fact is, Martinez didn't play long enough to get his stats to where they merit discussion with those currently in the HOF (most of them anyway).

[HoustonGM]

But he also had a number of injuries throughout his career is what I"m referring to.

He wasn't a fulltime player possibly because he wasn't worthy of it prior? I'm not saying roids brought him to that (although i'm thinking it), but maybe later in life things clicked. Maybe he got lasik? I don't know. But the fact he wasn't a full time player prior has to be considered. Being a HOF'er is alot about longevity.

I think his horrid defense played a huge role in it (not getting a real chance until he was 27).

Roger Maris had the alltime season HR record for alot of years...he's not in the HOF. OK...so you say its not about one season, what then is it about..2, 5, 10?? How many?

There isn't any specific number, but I'd say 12 full seasons of very, very, very good offense is enough.

Just a quick question, dickay, out of curiosity, do you think Jim Rice belongs in the Hall?

[dickay]

There is no precedent for a player that played nearly his entire career as a DH. Molitor is the closest to that, and he still played more games in the field than as a DH, and reached 3,000 hits, making him a lock no matter what. Edgar is the first case like himself.

Smith was the alltime leading closer when he came in, and many argue he was one of the first 1 inning closers. Alot of people take claim to 'redefining' this new closer role. Smith can't get in despite at the time having the most saves of any man alive.

So edgar is the first to play solely as a DH for most of his career??? So what??? I don't see why that garners any extra attention. If anything to me it lessens them, as he wasn't talented enough to field for most of his career. Focusing solely on offense, for a full time career DH to get in...they AT LEAST have to have HOF worthy statistics to start discussion. 300 HR's and 220 hits are not.

[HoustonGM]

Smith was the alltime leading closer when he came in, and many argue he was one of the first 1 inning closers. Alot of people take claim to 'redefining' this new closer role. Smith can't get in despite at the time having the most saves of any man alive.

Keep in mind that I haven't made the "Redefining" argument, AT ALL..

So edgar is the first to play solely as a DH for most of his career??? So what??? I don't see why that garners any extra attention.

I never said that. You said that you think prior precedent needs to be taken into account. I just said that there is no precedent for a case like Edgar's...

If anything to me it lessens them, as he wasn't talented enough to field for most of his career. Focusing solely on offense, for a full time career DH to get in...they AT LEAST have to have HOF worthy statistics to start discussion. 300 HR's and 220 hits are not.

I'd say you have to stop getting hung up on counting stats, particularly two that don't make up most of Edgar's value. Edgar's value came from getting on base and hitting extra bases, not limited to just home runs.

[boomboom]

The reason he wasn't given a chance is because the Mariners had Jamie Prestley and Darnel Coles in front of him. This is just one of the many things that Mariners Management totally mess up on.

They have a history of mismanagement. Woody Woodward might go down as the best GM in the history of the Mariners.

[HoustonGM]

Here's an interesting case study.

I think we all agree that Willie McCovey is a shoo-in for a Hall of Famer.

McCovey had 9,686 plate appearances. Martinez, 8,672. McCovey had about two extra seasons of playing time.

McCovey had 2,211 hits, less than Martinez's 2,247. Yes, McCovey had over 200 more home runs.

However, he had a total of 920 extra base hits. Martinez, 838. McCovey had more, which is what happens with 2 extra seasons of playing time.

However, even including those 2 extra seasons, McCovey got on base 3,625 times, just 6 more than Martinez's 3,619 times.

They both have equivalent 147 OPS+'s and .515 slugging. Martinez trumps McCovey easily in batting average and on-base percentage.

Martinez is fairly similar to McCovey if you just think about it for a second. Since we all agree (I'm assuming) that McCovey is easily a Hall of Famer, why isn't Martinez? Are those two extra seasons of playing time really enough to draw the line between Martinez and McCovey? Yes, McCovey had defensive value, which is why I'd say McCovey was easily a better overall player than Martinez, but I don't think that's enough to draw the in/out line between the two.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

I voted 'no'. I think he deserves induction, but I don't think he'll get inducted.

[dickay]

Here's an interesting case study.

I think we all agree that Willie McCovey is a shoo-in for a Hall of Famer.

McCovey had 9,686 plate appearances. Martinez, 8,672. McCovey had about two extra seasons of playing time.

McCovey had 2,211 hits, less than Martinez's 2,247. Yes, McCovey had over 200 more home runs.

However, he had a total of 920 extra base hits. Martinez, 838. McCovey had more, which is what happens with 2 extra seasons of playing time.

However, even including those 2 extra seasons, McCovey got on base 3,625 times, just 6 more than Martinez's 3,619 times.

They both have equivalent 147 OPS+'s and .515 slugging. Martinez trumps McCovey easily in batting average and on-base percentage.

Martinez is fairly similar to McCovey if you just think about it for a second. Since we all agree (I'm assuming) that McCovey is easily a Hall of Famer, why isn't Martinez? Are those two extra seasons of playing time really enough to draw the line between Martinez and McCovey? Yes, McCovey had defensive value, which is why I'd say McCovey was easily a better overall player than Martinez, but I don't think that's enough to draw the in/out line between the two.

McCovey had over 500 HRs, which at that time was undisputably a barometer for automatic entry. Regardless of any other numbers in his career, that garners entry. I'm sorry, but although Martinez's OPS was nice...the longevity factor is a big deal for me. In two seasons more playing time, McCovey hit 200+ more HR's.

Without the 'longevity' a HOF'er needs to have some pretty impressive stats, awards, etc. to get past the subpar stats in the major categories. The fact there was no glove involved, muddies the water even more.

As far as Jim Rice, no I don't think he's a HOF'er. Numbers just weren't good enough. Unlike Martinez, he did have one MVP to his credit...but thats not enough either. A great player, and one of the most feared bats of his time...but not a HOF'er.

[HoustonGM]

McCovey had over 500 HRs, which at that time was undisputably a barometer for automatic entry. Regardless of any other numbers in his career, that garners entry. I'm sorry, but although Martinez's OPS was nice...the longevity factor is a big deal for me. In two seasons more playing time, McCovey hit 200+ more HR's.

Without the 'longevity' a HOF'er needs to have some pretty impressive stats, awards, etc. to get past the subpar stats in the major categories. The fact there was no glove involved, muddies the water even more.

Well, it's pretty hard to have a impressive stats if you limit what those "impressive stats" can be to things like number of hits and home runs.

I think Edgar's .418 career OBP is impressive. I think his great extra base power was impressive.

He wasn't a home run hitter. It's unfair to judge his HOF case based on the number of home runs he hit.

[metsguy234]

he never played in a World Series.

Oh, you're right- sorry. I read his postseason stats down and assumed the bottom column was World Series (it was actually his overall postseason stats)

[ohms_law]

Edgar Martinez
Black Ink: Batting - 20 (105) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 107 (198) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 50.0 (74) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 131.5 (103) (Likely HOFer > 100)

[boomboom]

http://thebbreport.blogspot.com/2008...-martinez.html