Most Undeserving Hall of Famer

[HoustonGM]

Why does their league average matter? Shouldn't we be thinking about their performance and not how everyone else did?

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Do you really not understand the concept of comparing a player to his league...?

Whenever I hear of underserving HOF's however, Kirby Puckett comes to mind first.

Kirby wouldn't make my personal Hall (he'd need about 2/3 seasons of the same level of performance) but I can see the argument - very good hitter for a center fielder, plus defense.

And how about Tony Perez?

Again, not in my personal Hall, but, I can see the argument, although it's far less than that of Puckett's in my opinion.

I was going for more guys that make you "Why the hell is he in there?" Truly marginal/average players that somehow made the Hall. Perez and Puckett don't fit mine and many people's definition of a "Hall of Famer" but they're far from the WTF types such as those I listed above.

[metsguy234]

But defense isn't that important. It shouldn't get you elected to the hall of fame.

[HoustonGM]

But defense isn't that important.

It's also not unimportant.

I know you hate non-"traditional" stats becuase you don't understand them, but just take a little while to read this.

Equivalent Average is a stat that takes all the offensive contributions of a player - getting hits, getting on base, hitting for power, stealing bases, etc. - and puts it into one number on the same scale as batting average. Ozzie Smith's EQA was .261 for his career, making him an average hitter.

Now, the average shortstop will hit at a lower level than the average overall hitter. This means that Ozzie Smith was an ABOVE AVERAGE hitter relative to his position.

Combine this with the fact that Ozzie Smith was not simply an above average defender - he was a ridiculously brilliant one - and you have a VERY valuable player.

Fielding Runs Above Average is a slightly more advanced fielding metric. It's nowhere near as good as range based metrics like Zone Rating, +/-, UZR, etc., but it's better than fielding percentage. Ozzie scores at +254. He saved an estimated 254 runs defensively above that of an average shortstop. As a comparison, Omar Vizquel scores at +69.

You can use WARP3 - Wins Above Replacement Player. Ozzie's career WARP3 is 132.5. He had 4 seasons at 10 or above. Ken Griffey Jr.'s career WARP3 is 134.6, with 5 seasons at 10 or above.

Now, knowing you, you'll use that, and only that, to say that the stat is utter garbage. However, just stop and think about what you're doing. You're greatly undervaluing PHENOMENAL defense. Not just good defense, AMAZING defense. You're also COMPLETELY failing to adjust for ANY sort of context. You're not adjusting for his position, his league, his park, anything. In order to actually understand the value a player provided, you MUST adjust for context.

It shouldn't get you elected to the hall of fame.

When you're historically great at it, why not? When your overall contribution as a player is as high as other Hall of Famers, why does it matter the "shape" of that contribution, be it mostly offensive or defensive? All that should matter is how much production you provided to your teams, and production comes in the form of both offense and defense.

[chuckwillard]

Well, if we're looking for shortstops who don't deserve the Hall of Fame, what about Rizzuto? If he were in as a broadcaster, sure, but as a player?

[grasshopper]

Scooter made it during a different era. SS's used to make it on fielding, heart, and play, not so much with the bat. Guys like Ripken changed it to a power/offense position.

If I have to pick one guy who I think shouldn't be in, I am going with Ralph Kiner. I think LF is as close to DH as you can get so your numbers better be fantastic.

Another question. ARod is in no doubt. Will he go in as a SS or 3B? How does that work?

[Arctic Blast]

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I was going for more guys that make you "Why the hell is he in there?" Truly marginal/average players that somehow made the Hall. Perez and Puckett don't fit mine and many people's definition of a "Hall of Famer" but they're far from the WTF types such as those I listed above.

Yeah, I hear ya on that. I guess I'm just sort of going from my own personal opinion, since I often find myself in disagreement with HoF voters in sports, period.

At least baseball's is better off than hockey's. Some bad, bad, BAD picks in there.

[dps]

I know you hate non-"traditional" stats becuase you don't understand them

There's little to no evidence that he understands "traditional" stats either.

[HoustonGM]

Well, if we're looking for shortstops who don't deserve the Hall of Fame, what about Rizzuto? If he were in as a broadcaster, sure, but as a player?

Yeah, another guy, not in my personal HOF (although, considering his broadcasting, I'd put him in based solely on that), but I could understand the argument.

If I have to pick one guy who I think shouldn't be in, I am going with Ralph Kiner. I think LF is as close to DH as you can get so your numbers better be fantastic.

7 consecutive home run titles? I mean, I understand not thinking Kiner's a Hall of Famer...but, really, he's the one guy you'd pick that shouldn't be in? With all the other marginal players in there?

Another question. ARod is in no doubt. Will he go in as a SS or 3B? How does that work?

I'm not sure it'll really be distinguished...all his accomplishments will be noted.

There's little to no evidence that he understands "traditional" stats either.

True...

[Pavelb1]

I'm surprised Mazeroski's name hasn't come up. Let's be honest, despite being the 2B version of Ozzie, if it wern't for that one home run, would he have got in?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Mazeroski

Look at that damn wall in the pic! How close is that wall? Does the ball have to clear the entire wall? That clock must be 50 feet high!

[Rongar]

Besides his obvious skills, according to his plaque, Ozzie had a lotta charm...his team-mates liked him, the Press liked him...with those two in my corner, I could make the HOF!

[ohms_law]

metsguy... please go to the library and pick up some baseball books. It doesn't matter what, at this point, just anything. It seems obvious to me that you want to know more about baseball than you do, and doing a bit of reading is really the only way that you'll learn.

[RickD]

Even Baseball biographies can be good!

[eick]

Defense is every bit as important as offense, just no where near as flashy as offense. Think about it this way, every run I keep you from scoring is one less run I need to score to win, therefore every run I stop is just as important as every run you score.

[cartman00000001]

A good example of "you have to look at the era as opposed to the player" is this: They say (although I don't agree 100%) that 300 game winners will be a thing of the past. Does that mean there will be no more pitchers getting into the HOF once this (supposedly) happens? Of course not.

How about 500 HR hitters in the "Steroid Era"? Mark McGwire anyone? Remember when 300 wins and 500 HR was a lock? What is it going to be 30 years from now? 200 wins and 600 HR? Who knows?

[RedsoxRockies]

A lot of the Giants from the 20's and 30's should not be in. Rabbit Maranville, Freddie Lindstrom, Evers, Tinkers and Chance, Puckett....