Head Hunting....

[dickay]

Right, see, you could just as easily picked Hansen throwing at ARod. Joba and Hansen threw in the same general location. ARod stood up, Youk ducked. Had ARod ducked, it would have hit him in the head.

I didn't see the Hansen pitch. No, Youk didn't duck into the pitch that one I did see. I used that example because its an example I heard on the radio yesterday morning, and I mentioned that in my initial post. I also used the examples of Millar and Arod being hit/thrown at yesterday (believe it was Millar).

It doesn't matter the example used....you could go back to the Pedro throws at heads and use those examples if they make you feel more warm and fuzzy. Jeter jumps all over the plate, and as I said I have no problem pitching inside and even hitting a batter in some cases. Its part of the game IMO. I do have issue with blatant fastballs at the head.

[RickD]

Yeah, but some posters were advocating punishment regardless of intent. Accidents will happen, how do you know if its intentional or not?

If you can't control your pitches than sit down.

[knicks0929]

If you can't control your pitches than sit down.

Let's ban from baseball any pitcher who has ever hit a batter, in that case.

[RickD]

I know accidents happen but there is NO excuse for pitching near a man's head.

[dickay]

Let's ban from baseball any pitcher who has ever hit a batter, in that case.

Agree, some are going too far with this. But for the naysayers, think about this. Its gotta take one sick and twisted individual to throw a heater purposely at someones head at any time, let alone during a game in front of thousands! I just can't fathom it. I'd love to know where they get off thinking its OK to do so. Complete disrespect. Its hard to show such utter disrespect for someones life, kind of like spitting in someones face...but even that isn't enough.

Its troubling to me and I ramble.

[filihok]

I know accidents happen but there is NO excuse for pitching near a man's head.

There is. I pitched in H.S. and sometimes you try to throw up and in, and get too up and too in-near his head. Whenever I tried to hit a guy I aimed for his hips-then if I missed a little high it got him in the ribs and a little low in the leg. I'd never throw at his head...but it can happen.

[dickay]

There is. I pitched in H.S. and sometimes you try to throw up and in, and get too up and too in-near his head. Whenever I tried to hit a guy I aimed for his hips-then if I missed a little high it got him in the ribs and a little low in the leg. I'd never throw at his head...but it can happen.

I agree accidents happen. MLB is eons beyond the high school level and in most cases these guys could shoot the tits off a bull from a hundred yards away (haha, can't recall where I heard that one from but it popped in my head). You have to give the benefit of doubt in most cases, but certainly we have all seen pitchers purposely try to hit batters, and while doing so going up and in at the head is never acceptable.

[filihok]

I agree accidents happen. MLB is eons beyond the high school level and in most cases these guys could shoot the tits off a bull from a hundred yards away (haha, can't recall where I heard that one from but it popped in my head). You have to give the benefit of doubt in most cases, but certainly we have all seen pitchers purposely try to hit batters, and while doing so going up and in at the head is never acceptable.

Are you saying I didn't have enough control to get to the bigs?

I think it's just hard to police. Umpire's discression-sure. But when people are talking 50 game suspensions for hitting a batter, that's a lot to lay on umpire's discression.

[ohms_law]

You know, maybe it's time for it to happen in baseball, too. And, you mention sometimes it's control issues...well, maybe if you're struggling THAT badly with your control, you shouldn't be pitching in the majors. I mean, if your control is so weak that you're endangering the health of opposing batters (and I think we all agree that a 90+ mph heater does do that), perhaps you could use some more seasoning down in AAA.

Exactly.

Nice selective reading. I can think of several factors that are outside the pitcher's control that can affect his control. I'm sure if you try you can come up with a few as well.

Every pitcher in the majors hits batters from time to time. It happens. Pitches go errant, pitchers have bad days, etc. Hitting a batter is not necessarily a sign that the pitcher needs more seasoning...obviously.

A zero tolerance policy on hit batters would NOT work. It'd result in players being punished for things that they did not intentionally do, that every single pitcher in the history of the game has done because throwing a baseball isn't exactly an easy thing to do.

So what? We're not talking about hitting batters in general. We're talking about hitting batters in the head. Intent shouldn't matter at that point. At the very least, just eject the pitcher after any throw to the head.
So, some pitchers will become slightly hesitant when throwing up and in. So what? Everyone panned the stick foul rules in hockey as well, at first, and with the exact same sort of thinking behind the criticisms. It quickly became apparent that it was a good rule change though for the simple fact that stick fouls were putting players lives in jeopardy. Pitchers would adjust, and quickly.

[RickD]

So what? We're not talking about hitting batters in general. We're talking about hitting batters in the head. Intent shouldn't matter at that point. At the very least, just eject the pitcher after any throw to the head.
So, some pitchers will become slightly hesitant when throwing up and in. So what? Everyone panned the stick foul rules in hockey as well, at first, and with the exact same sort of thinking behind the criticisms. It quickly became apparent that it was a good rule change though for the simple fact that stick fouls were putting players lives in jeopardy. Pitchers would adjust, and quickly.

Exactly. Well said!

[dickay]

So what? We're not talking about hitting batters in general. We're talking about hitting batters in the head. Intent shouldn't matter at that point. At the very least, just eject the pitcher after any throw to the head.
So, some pitchers will become slightly hesitant when throwing up and in. So what? Everyone panned the stick foul rules in hockey as well, at first, and with the exact same sort of thinking behind the criticisms. It quickly became apparent that it was a good rule change though for the simple fact that stick fouls were putting players lives in jeopardy. Pitchers would adjust, and quickly.
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Interesting thought....and I can't say I fully disagree but I know I don't fully agree with it either. I tell myself that the pitcher has enough disadvantages already, and making his strike zone 'smaller' because he has to be more cautious about pitching inside or even up and in doesn't seem right. I'd prefer to keep it more subjective by an outside committee away from the actual game being played. Although, I also tell myself that our society has progressed far enough, and your stick example is good. People would adjust to it....and the batters would be safer.

Maybe if they implement your rule you can get them to raise the mound back up a bit lol. I like pitchers duels

[CatKnight]

50 game suspension for the first offense is a little harsh...but not by much.

First off, it isn't up to the umpire's discretion. The umpire decides if the pitcher needs to leave the game. The LEAGUE can then look at the tapes and decide whether to pursue the matter. Plus, you know the whiny ass pitchers will appeal and it'll go to an arbitrator.

I know nothing about what the NHL's faced. I do know a fair bit about the batter who was killed in 1920. Cleveland SS Ray Chapman - popular guy from what I can read. Went down like he was shot. Recovered briefly, but was somewhat incoherent...as he well might be. Died in the hospital.

Players at the time called for Yankee SP Carl Mays' head. Mays had a reputation as a bit of a troublemaker, though he was also shaken up by this. Indians CF/Manager Tris Speaker came to his defense basically arguing that Mays wasn't intentionally trying to injure Chapman. It just happened.

Is that true any longer though? Can we really look at modern headhunters and say they're not trying to INJURE players? Of course they'll say they aren't, but use basic logic here: 90-95 mph baseball = weapon.

I strongly suspect Joba (and Martinez) wouldn't be so quick to throw at batters if they had to face pitchers themselves. It's interesting how the DH rule works when you have cowards on the mound. Yes: It is cowardice to attack someone (intentionally throw at them) when they can't retaliate.

The rising tendency in headhunting proves intent. It is that intent that must be crushed.

1. Any pitch - ANY pitch - that is 'too' high and inside results in the pitcher's ejection. If that makes them be more cautious, then GOOD. I'd rather have the league look for ways to deal with too much offense then explain why someone's dead or crippled.

2. The call should be reviewed by the league. If there is reason to believe the throw may have been intentional, rather than an absurd loss of control, then suspend the player for 20 games for the first offense.

3. The pitcher will of course appeal. We see it with pretty much every suspension the league tries. Fine. Let an arbitrator balance head hunting with safety.

3a. Ban the Cub minor league pitcher. BEST case scenario he was throwing at the dugout, where the players are even more defenseless. That's assault. Send a message to the children coming up through the ranks that this behavior IS going to stop.

Again, and as a summary: Safety trumps everything. That is true in every responsible profession. Anyone who has trouble seeing that is just like the Romans who went to the Colisseum, more interested in spectacle and entertainment than life and limb.

We can find ways to compensate if actively punishing headhunters allows too much offense. (I don't think it will.) We can't do anything, however, if a man dies.

[rockiesfan4ever]

I know accidents happen but there is NO excuse for pitching near a man's head.

See that's the thing what's the difference between accident and going for the head. I played in a game in which I got hit in the eye (under the helmet) by a fastball (The P had been living inside the whole game). I could see not taking action against this, but then the next guy comes up and the first 2 pitches the P throws are at HIS head. At that point something needs to be done.

[CatKnight]

If that P had been 'living inside the whole game', then I'd still eject him. If he's going to insist on pitching inside, then his control better be perfect. Otherwise, he shouldn't be playing.

[filihok]

If he's going to insist on pitching inside, then his control better be perfect. Otherwise, he shouldn't be playing.

No...pitchers can pitch inside, and not just Greg Maddux.

Some players get hit that's part of the game. In 120 years of baseball there's been how many guys SERIOUSLY injured by a pitched ball? It's not like it's happening every day and guys are being wheeled out of the stadium on stretchers.

Mike Coolbaugh was killed by a foul ball. Obviously no one is calling for batters that hit foul balls to be ejected from the game.

Every sport has a risk of injury. You try to mimimize those injuries but saying a pitcher can't pitch inside is going way too far.

There needs to be a way to determine if the pitcher was intentionally trying to hit the batter in the head. That borders on being a criminal act. And needs to be dealt with accordingly.

A pitch a foot and a half off the plate low and away doesn't cause a blink, but if the same pitcher misses by the same magnitude in a different direction I don't think you can kick him out of baseball for 50 games.