Hank Steinbrenner is the biggest...uh...kitty...I've ever seen

[filihok]

Good analogy, so all baseball players should be able to throw 95MPH with great breaking pitches that nibble corners.

It works both ways you see. Fact is, pitchers have to spend more time perfecting their craft which is why even NL pitchers do poorly at the plate. They now make millions of dollars, and fans should get to see Chin Mein Wang pitch and not some third rate bum because Wang got hurt doing something he really shouldn't have to do any longer.

I really don't see a valid argument, and its funny you touch on the production piece and leave the piece of my quote regarding protection of the commodity out. Way to pick arguments and try to divert the discussion. You can't argue 'tradition, its how the game was meant to be played' because you all have been citing old rules that are no longer in existince proving the game is no longer played how it was 'meant to be.

Ok...

Occasionally a pitcher will get injured running the bases or swinging a bat. This is a fairly rare occurence, correct? Most pitcher injuries are pitching related, correct? So, actually, the best way to make sure we don't have to watch some "third rate bum" would be to decrease the number of injuries caused by pitching.

I would suggest the DH rule is contrary to this. With the extra hitter in the lineup the pitcher is under more stress and is more likely to throw more pitches. The easy out that the pitcher at bat provides prevents wear and tear on the pitcher who is on the mound.

[dickay]

I would suggest the DH rule is contrary to this. With the extra hitter in the lineup the pitcher is under more stress and is more likely to throw more pitches. The easy out that the pitcher at bat provides prevents wear and tear on the pitcher who is on the mound.

I'm glad you bring this up. I agree that the pitcher is under more stress which is one of the main reasons I feel the AL has a large advantage in WS play. The AL DH's are much better than the NL DH's during those games, which gives the AL a bigger advantage.

Now, as for your argument the pitchers throw more pitches...that is not factual. Its a nice try, but not factual. Teams have a pretty strict pitch count and on rare occassion does pitchers throw much over that. Yes, you could say that they reach that pitch count earlier and the team must go into the bullpen earlier....that would be factual. But that doesn't contribute to more injuries.

Occasionally a pitcher will get injured running the bases or swinging a bat. This is a fairly rare occurence, correct? Most pitcher injuries are pitching related, correct? So, actually, the best way to make sure we don't have to watch some "third rate bum" would be to decrease the number of injuries caused by pitching.

Which is why MLB teams have such strict pitch counts nowadays. Again trying to preserve their commodities. A pitcher getting hurt pitching is easier stomached than a pitcher hurt doing something he really doesn't need to be doing, swinging a bat & running the bases.

[filihok]

But that doesn't contribute to more injuries.

Would you care to provide some evidence for this statement. Not that I doubt that you're an intelligent person but just because you proclaim something to be true doesn't prove it to me. I would think that over the course of a season or a career, repeatedly throwing more pitches would have a huge effect on a pitchers health.

Which is why MLB teams have such strict pitch counts nowadays. Again trying to preserve their commodities. A pitcher getting hurt pitching is easier stomached than a pitcher hurt doing something he really doesn't need to be doing, swinging a bat & running the bases.

This is the gist of the argument. I think that he really does need to be doing it. An injury suffered during a baseball game is an injury suffered during a baseball game. And I'll stomach it. When a dude cuts his hand on a glass at a bar before a playoff game, that's a big problem. When a pitcher gets hurt trying to score a run or get a hit, trying to help his team win, that's just part of the game.

[dickay]

Would you care to provide some evidence for this statement. Not that I doubt that you're an intelligent person but just because you proclaim something to be true doesn't prove it to me. I would think that over the course of a season or a career, repeatedly throwing more pitches would have a huge effect on a pitchers health.

Huh?? You're the one saying that the pitchers have to throw more, i'm saying they don't. They throw to a pitch count which is as low as its ever been in the history of the game. You provide evidence that AL pitchers are throwing MORE pitches since the DH has been implemented.

This is the gist of the argument. I think that he really does need to be doing it. An injury suffered during a baseball game is an injury suffered during a baseball game. And I'll stomach it. When a dude cuts his hand on a glass at a bar before a playoff game, that's a big problem. When a pitcher gets hurt trying to score a run or get a hit, trying to help his team win, that's just part of the game.

But there's no need for him to be swinging a bat or running the bases. That is the gist of the argument. These guys now 'specialize' more than ever throwing a baseball and are paid millions for it. Its laughable how even NL pitchers at times will go to the plate and just stand there and do nothing so they don't risk injury swinging the bat. Its a joke. Its like making a QB play both ways in football. Its unnecessary....but still football. Yea yea, I know nobody now plays both ways but when they did, in most cases the QB didn't have to. Even the dopey young NFL recognized the need to protect their talent.

[TheNamelessPoet]

I've never even heard the "it's bad because pitchers risk getting hurt" line until a star pitcher on a team with a whiney owner got hurt.

yet again
BINGO!!!

[filihok]

Huh?? You're the one saying that the pitchers have to throw more, i'm saying they don't. They throw to a pitch count which is as low as its ever been in the history of the game. You provide evidence that AL pitchers are throwing MORE pitches since the DH has been implemented.

But there's no need for him to be swinging a bat or running the bases. That is the gist of the argument. These guys now 'specialize' more than ever throwing a baseball and are paid millions for it. Its laughable how even NL pitchers at times will go to the plate and just stand there and do nothing so they don't risk injury swinging the bat. Its a joke. Its like making a QB play both ways in football. Its unnecessary....but still football. Yea yea, I know nobody now plays both ways but when they did, in most cases the QB didn't have to. Even the dopey young NFL recognized the need to protect their talent.

I've spent a half hour trying to find it...maybe Houston or Ohms or one of those braniacs can.

I think the pitchers that "stand there and do nothing" are not actually trying to avoid injury, but are more likely trying to avoid a double play. Though I've not seen a pitcher "stand there and do nothing".

You know man, we're not going to solve this argument. Some people like the DH, some people hate the DH. I will say though, that this whole thing has opened my eyes to some points that I hadn't considered before and...(trying to bring myself to say it)...the DH doesn't seem quite as blasphemous as it once did.

I played baseball in high school. I wasn't really that good. I was a terrible hitter and a mediocre pitcher. And though I knew that sometimes I was going to make a complete *** of myself, I still liked to get in the box and take some swings. I wouldn't want anyone to hit for me. It was my duty to do whatever I could. Sometimes it was pitching, sometimes hitting, sometimes playing the field, sometimes coaching a base, sometimes cleaning up all the equipment after practice, whatever.

I just think if you're a baseball player, you are a baseball player. And to me, a baseball player helps his team in everyway possible. In the field, at the plate, in the dugout.

[dickay]

owww comon...don't stop arguin lol.

j/k...no I agree we're not going to come to any agreement. But its nice debate. As for pitchers just standing there, I've seen it many times, most notably Pedro Martinez and they specifically stated prior to the game he wouldn't swing the bat to avoid injury. He basically stood there and took pitches from the pitcher to make him throw as much as possible. This tactic is used more often though by AL during WS and interleague games as they feel the pitcher isn't used to swinging the bat so they tell him not to. Sometimes they'll have em lay a bunt, but sometimes i've seen them also tell them to be a statue.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Um isn't it a circular argument as NEITHER of your opinions will actually change the rules (unless ofcourse 1 of you is Bud Selig in disguise....*shudders at the thought*)

[dickay]

Um isn't it a circular argument as NEITHER of your opinions will actually change the rules (unless ofcourse 1 of you is Bud Selig in disguise....*shudders at the thought*)

not at all......if that were the case and voices were so powerless we'd all be much worse off.

Before one can convince the world, one must be able to convince an online computing gamer.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

not at all......if that were the case and voices were so powerless we'd all be much worse off.

Before one can convince the world, one must be able to convince an online computing gamer.

Funny you should say that,that was exactly what George Jr said in 2000 when they gave him the Big red button NOT to push (luckily someone hid it very quickly)

[filihok]

You know how many American League pitchers besides Chien-Ming Wang have landed on the disabled list because they suffered an interleague-play injury while running the bases in the past five seasons? How about none, according to Baseball Prospectus' Will Carroll. So it's time for Hank to head for the dictionary and study the definition of "freak injury," because that's what this was.

Even for a successful, established pitcher, the risk of catastrophic injury is meaningfully high throughout his career, almost certainly at least 10 percent in any given season.

[HoustonGM]

I'm glad you bring this up. I agree that the pitcher is under more stress which is one of the main reasons I feel the AL has a large advantage in WS play. The AL DH's are much better than the NL DH's during those games, which gives the AL a bigger advantage.

Much better? Only in a couple cases. Overall, it's pretty even. Most NL teams have a bench player that hits like an average DH, OR a poor-fielding hitter that they use as the DH, thus improving their defense.

[filihok]

Stults also pitched in with LA's revived offense. He drew a walk and had a hit-and-run single through the hole at shortstop - perfectly placed - that set up a run.

"He was great with the bat and with the arm," manager Joe Torre said.

[dickay]

You know how many American League pitchers besides Chien-Ming Wang have landed on the disabled list because they suffered an interleague-play injury while running the bases in the past five seasons? How about none, according to Baseball Prospectus' Will Carroll. So it's time for Hank to head for the dictionary and study the definition of "freak injury," because that's what this was.

Even for a successful, established pitcher, the risk of catastrophic injury is meaningfully high throughout his career, almost certainly at least 10 percent in any given season.

As for the first link....I've spent way too much time looking for a site where they've listed all the pitchers who have been injured swinging a bat or running the bases. Can't find it. My point to the link is, if ONE pitcher is hurt running the bases it is too much. The little blurb doesn't mention how many have been hurt swinging the bat, and it ONLY discusses AL pitchers. How many NL pitchers have been hurt in the past five years running bases or swinging bats. Again, if its one it is too many. Why??? Well.........

The answer to why is the link you posted in paragraph two. Pitchers are ALREADY at a 'meaningfully high' risk of injury throughout their career. Why increase that risk by running bases and swinging bats, things that cause them to use muscles in ways they don't spend much time training for? Their arms get more use than any others on the team and they then are asked to try and hit 95 MPH heat? Their legs are already worked much harder than every other player than the catcher and then they're told to run bases which is something they don't do often. You see guys who run bases EVERY DAY break ankles, tear hamstrings and knees etc. etc.

Why jeopardize an already fragile and rare commodity in todays age where it just makes sense DH and have the most talent on the mound and the plate?

BTW, thanks for doing the research and helping to illustrate my point

[filihok]

As for the first link....I've spent way too much time looking for a site where they've listed all the pitchers who have been injured swinging a bat or running the bases. Can't find it. My point to the link is, if ONE pitcher is hurt running the bases it is too much. The little blurb doesn't mention how many have been hurt swinging the bat, and it ONLY discusses AL pitchers. How many NL pitchers have been hurt in the past five years running bases or swinging bats. Again, if its one it is too many. Why??? Well.........

The answer to why is the link you posted in paragraph two. Pitchers are ALREADY at a 'meaningfully high' risk of injury throughout their career. Why increase that risk by running bases and swinging bats, things that cause them to use muscles in ways they don't spend much time training for? Their arms get more use than any others on the team and they then are asked to try and hit 95 MPH heat? Their legs are already worked much harder than every other player than the catcher and then they're told to run bases which is something they don't do often. You see guys who run bases EVERY DAY break ankles, tear hamstrings and knees etc. etc.

Why jeopardize an already fragile and rare commodity in todays age where it just makes sense DH and have the most talent on the mound and the plate.

Pitchers are more likely to get hurt pitching than hitting or running the bases. The extra risk incured by pitchers batting is minimal. If you really want to protect your star pitchers from injury, make them batters.