Men Who Can Play The Game

[gRYFYN1]

OK...if you respected my car knowledge similar to the way many have some kind of respect or appreciation for baseball analysts or coaches...if you were looking for a car and I said to you that one is a junker, or that one is a lemon...without saying anything you know what I mean.
(

But if I asked you why a Porshe is such a good car and you said "It really runs well" , what informantion have you given me.

[dabruinss]

it's sad how many players really DON'T know how to play the game.

if your fast and you fly out your an idiot.

an outfielder that throws the ball to the wrong base allowing the hitter to get to 2nd and taking away doubleplay possibilities is an idiot.

trying to make it on the fly with a throw from the wall to home. you guessed it an idiot.

not understanding that a guy having problems finding the plate will most likely throw balls and you shouldnt swing. again idiot.


there are alot of heads up ballplayers. dont assume that just because they made the majors though that they all know how to play because they don't.

[dickay]

But if I asked you why a Porshe is such a good car and you said "It really runs well" , what informantion have you given me.

But if I said, "it's got a great engine" that does tell you something and is IMO a better comparison to the baseball quote of "he knows how to play the game".

there are alot of heads up ballplayers. dont assume that just because they made the majors though that they all know how to play because they don't.

I couldn't agree with you more but don't be surprised when someone takes your claim that "they all don't know how to play the game" and trivializes it to say that you mean all players don't know their way to first base.

[HoustonGM]

it's sad how many players really DON'T know how to play the game.

Every single Major League Baseball player knows how to play the game of baseball. You cannot become a professional athlete without knowing how to play the game you play. It's impossible.

if your fast and you fly out your an idiot.

What?

an outfielder that throws the ball to the wrong base allowing the hitter to get to 2nd and taking away doubleplay possibilities is an idiot.

Or a mistake.

qtrying to make it on the fly with a throw from the wall to home. you guessed it an idiot.

Even if you have that ability?

not understanding that a guy having problems finding the plate will most likely throw balls and you shouldnt swing. again idiot.

Or a free swinger.

there are alot of heads up ballplayers. dont assume that just because they made the majors though that they all know how to play because they don't.

Yes. They do know how to play the game. They may not be as good as other players are. They may make some mistakes. But making a mistake does not mean you do not know how to play baseball. It means you're a human being.

But if I said, "it's got a great engine" that does tell you something and is IMO a better comparison to the baseball quote of "he knows how to play the game".

I don't think that's a better comparison. Some cars have bad engines, some have good engines. Every baseball player knows how to play baseball.

I couldn't agree with you more but don't be surprised when someone takes your claim that "they all don't know how to play the game" and trivializes it to say that you mean all players don't know their way to first base.

You can't possibly equate making mistakes with not knowing how to play. It's ludicrous.

[dabruinss]

o.k. houstongm your 18 years old. you really havent been around long enough. the truth is there are guys that can't play but they get by because they have a specialty. some are great at defense while others are total power hitters and have no idea what a glove even is let alone which base to throw it to. you also have world class sprinters playing just because they are fast. how many players with world class speed cant even steal a base. how many power hitters cant hit a ball. why is it catchers make the best managers. they are most likely the ones that knew everything as a kid and they never lost it.

[HoustonGM]

o.k. houstongm your 18 years old. you really havent been around long enough.

Entirely irrelevent.

the truth is there are guys that can't play but they get by because they have a specialty.

This does not equal not knowing how to play baseball.

some are great at defense while others are total power hitters and have no idea what a glove even is let alone which base to throw it to.

Hyperbole at its best.

you also have world class sprinters playing just because they are fast. how many players with world class speed cant even steal a base. how many power hitters cant hit a ball.

None of this is not knowing how to play baseball. You seem to be confusing having limited skills with a lack of knowledge. Every fast guy who made it to the bigs because of his speed still knows how to play baseball. Every fast guy that isn't good at getting jumps or reading pitchers and thus not good at stealing bases still knows how to play baseball. Every power hitter who can't hit for average still knows how to play baseball.

By your fabulous logic, there is no baseball player that knows how to play, since they all have weaknesses. I guess Ted Williams doesn't know how to play baseball because he sucked defensively.

why is it catchers make the best managers. they are most likely the ones that knew everything as a kid and they never lost it.

This is entirely irrelevent to the discussion. Some players are more intelligent than others, some players know more about the ins and outs of the game, but they all know how to play. Also, managing also requires communication skills, and catchers play the position that requires the highest level of communication, which is part of the reason why they tend to make the best managers.

There really is a difference between knowing how to the play the game and playing it well.

Yes, there really is. That is why when a player plays well, I like to hear "He's a good player" not "He knows how to play the game" because many players know how to play the game but aren't good. In fact, every single professional baseball player knows how to play the game, but most aren't average or better major league players.

Take chess for instance - Many people know the moves, and the rules, but 'knowing how to play the game' can make one a grandmaster. Some of the dumbest people I know can kick a smarter person's butt in chess, simply by retraining their mind to deal with the game.

Chess is a strategical game. Knowing the ins and outs of the strategies and thus being a better chess player does not mean that lesser chess players don't know how to play chess. It means they aren't as good at it. Every person who plays chess knows how to play chess. If a chess analyst said about a good player, "He knows how to play chess" that would be terrible analysis and tell you absolutely nothing.

But it isn't really obvious, since you can't grasp the concept.

Saying that a baseball player knows how to play baseball..or perhaps my favorite, saying a baseball player is a baseball player, isn't stating the obvious?

[dickay]

Yes, there really is. That is why when a player plays well, I like to hear "He's a good player" not "He knows how to play the game" because many players know how to play the game but aren't good. In fact, every single professional baseball player knows how to play the game, but most aren't average or better major league players.

Check mate. This pretty much bullseye the fact you are taking the statement far too literally. I think you are pretty intelligent too and you know what they are saying but you are simply clinging onto it out because you are too stubborn to admit so. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit and you really don't get it.

More catchers become major league managers than other positions simply 'because they know how to play the game'.

nuff said.

[dabruinss]

I feel like i'm talking to my 19 year old son dasox

[dickay]

I feel like i'm talking to my 19 year old son dasox

well...i've had alot of PC time the last couple days and got pretty tired of seeing him pick others posts apart and question each and every point twisting them around for what seems like pure enjoyment....so I decided to do the same to his posts and probably wound him up a bit too tight lol.

[HoustonGM]

See you're being entirely too nitpicky and literal. We should all suffer reading thru pointless rant after pointless rant because you would prefer if the wording was different? Gawd.

Nobody forces you to read anything. Also, I'm not the only person that doesn't like hearing tired drivel from analysts. As you can see from this thread.

It's not obvious, apparently, because you don't understand that when we say 'he knows how to play the game', we don't mean he literally knows how to play. A fact that everyone else seems to inherently know.

You whine about people nitpicking over vorp, so why nitpick over a cliche?

I know what they "mean", but really, it means so many different things to different people, which is another reason why it gives no information. Some people say it to talk about players that "play above their tools." Some people say it to talk about smart guys like Kevin Youkilis. Some people say it to talk about guys that hustle a lot. It has varied meanings depending on who is saying it and who the subject is that they're talking about.

My point is that "expert analysts" shouldn't use it. They should give expert analysis. Or not call themselves experts.

I don't really care when a manager says it about a player, or a player says it about another play. I care when people claim to be experts and then resort to nothing but meaningless cliches that provide no information.

Call it nitpicking, whatever, but I prefer that baseball's expert analysts give expert analysis.

[HoustonGM]

Check mate. This pretty much bullseye the fact you are taking the statement far too literally. I think you are pretty intelligent too and you know what they are saying but you are simply clinging onto it out because you are too stubborn to admit so. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit and you really don't get it.

I get it perfectly, but I expect better from "expert analysts." I don't see what's so wrong with that.

Really, if I can't whine about vorp's name, then why whine about the wording of a cliche, which you know wasn't meant to be taken that literally. It implies intangibles and just making the most of his ability. They generally use this term on players who don't have raw talent but are good ball players. We can't quantify what makes them successful since they may not be fast or strong or anything that can be physically measured, but they produce well on the field.

But then they also say it about other players for which the above isn't true, which just leads me back to my original point - it doesn't really mean anything.

What is your idea of expert analysis? Right, the football analysis.

That wasn't my example.

Do you realize that all the college players are analyzed and yet a 5th or 6th rounder will become a superstar? I hear the term football player and grinder in football games too. Watch some, and educate yourself before you say it's isolated to MLB.

Show me where I said it's isolated to the MLB.

Watching a few segments of sports that probably don't know anything about anyway doesn't mean you're educated on them.

Show me where I claimed to be educated on any sport besides baseball.

You want expert analysis - This player who knows how to play the game is good for reasons that we can't explain. Sometimes experts even don't have all the answers.

That's horrible analysis. Kevin Youkilis was the subject of the statement that sparked my LJ post.

Instead of such insightful analysis like "He's a baseball player that can play", expert analysis is more along the lines of..."Kevin Youkilis has great command of the strike zone. He has good plate coverage and a great eye and ability to discern balls and strikes. He's reaching the age that many players peak with their power abilities, and could be on his way to a power breakout." You know...something that actually gives you information about the player. There is absolutely no player ever that useful information about why he's good can't be given.

[gRYFYN1]

You want expert analysis - This player who knows how to play the game is good for reasons that we can't explain. Sometimes experts even don't have all the answers.

But generally these can be explained, the "experts" just chose not to bother and use any thought process and just say "because", which is essentially what they are doing ... There is only two people in the world that are allowed to give you that answer to a legitimate question.

Perhaps he could have pointed out that Youkilis excels due to a high level of concetraion, quailty body placement on defence, knowing pitch patters/tendencies in the batters box, great balance .... any one of those would have been far far far far more worthy to mention than the fact he knows how many outs there are in an ininng.

While Im not saying they ALL do this (i actually saw an amazing bit on BBT on how dramatically diffent Travis Halfner stand in the box now as opposed to 2006) but there just no reason for it.

[HoustonGM]

While Im not saying they ALL do this (i actually saw an amazing bit on BBT on how dramatically diffent Travis Halfner stand in the box now as opposed to 2006) but there just no reason for it.

I saw that too. It was pretty good.

And yeah, it's not as if every analyst does this all the time. They all do have some real analysis, but I think the meaningless cliches are way too overdone. If those were sprinkled in every once in a while in between good, solid analysis, I wouldn't notice them, nor care. It's that mainstream "expert analysis" is cliches and nonsense, sprinkled with some analysis.

[boomboom]

The point to all this is - HGM is being entirely too literal. 'Knowing how to play the game the right way' means the player can achieve things beyond his actual athletic level in comparision with others that possess similiar athletic skills.

agree and agree

[HoustonGM]

I don't think that expecting more than cliches from expert analysis is being too literal. I also don't see how "knowing how to play the game the right way" can make a player succeed beyond his actual athletic ability (being more intelligent, yes, but then why not just say that?), although I know that's what they mean.