If steroids is cheating...........

[Toby]

Yes steroids are a form of technology to make athletes better at what they do, but do other forms of technology make people kill other people... the answer is no. I have done alot of research for an English essay in one of my college courses and I found out alot of things. I found out from a former user that your moods are uncontrollable, you get depressed and suicidal and you do get "roid rage." It is also understandable that no matter what athletes will still be using, but just think about how many more would be using would nay of you guys on here want your kids or somebody you know using, of course not. It’s just sad that we have finally gotten to the point where nobody can really stop the guys using steroids. It’s just wrong. There are even guys out there who actually think that people who dont use steroids should not be allowed to compete because theyre not as good as the people who are on steroids. I dont know how this problem will ever be solved, it may never be solved but making them legal will not make the situation any better

[ohms_law]

Again though, we're not talking about illegal/unauthorized PED use. We're talking about medically supervised use. My understanding is that "Roid rage" and the other severe side effects come from abuse, not simply by using PED's at all (for most PED's, at least).

[Wassit3]

by the way, I have to say the best investiment I have ever made, was to myself with lasik.


Left Eye:
Before: 20-45 with a huge stigmatism
After: 20-12 --No stigmatism

Right eye
Before: 20-30 with a huge stigmatism
After: slightly better than 20-15 --- No stigmatism

This is where i had it done.
http://www.lasikplus.com/

I payed roughly $2800 for both eyes, but the best part is that if they are still in operations in 40 years, when my farsighteness goes away, I could get corrective surgery for free including monovision. I picked this place based off research that actually my employeer provided for me and what I found on the internet. Simply put, Lasik Plus! is the best Lasik place in the Northwest (Bellevue/Seattle Location)

yeah but what we want to know is how are you hitting curve balls now a days compared to before...

[gRYFYN1]

Again though, we're not talking about illegal/unauthorized PED use. We're talking about medically supervised use. My understanding is that "Roid rage" and the other severe side effects come from abuse, not simply by using PED's at all (for most PED's, at least).

But the problem is that using steroids et al, in "safe" supervised doses will not yield any substantial effect. Meaning the only reason to use them is to abuse them.

[dickay]

Your eyes stay the same size from the time you are born to you die...that is what I heard.

As for night vision, for the first 2 months (Jan and Feb) Stop lights were way tooo bright!! headlights hurt my eyes...I thought about wearing sunglasses at midnight one day...lol,

Thou now it is fine, I have had no problems since the 3rd week of February....

LOL, I guess I should've used different wording. Your eyes don't get 'larger' but they are continually developing well into your 20's and for some into the early to mid 30's. Your eyes need to stabalize before they will continue surgery. Mine haven't yet, which is why everytime I get an exam they want to up my prescription.

[dickay]

Yes steroids are a form of technology to make athletes better at what they do, but do other forms of technology make people kill other people... the answer is no. I have done alot of research for an English essay in one of my college courses and I found out alot of things. I found out from a former user that your moods are uncontrollable, you get depressed and suicidal and you do get "roid rage." It is also understandable that no matter what athletes will still be using, but just think about how many more would be using would nay of you guys on here want your kids or somebody you know using, of course not. It’s just sad that we have finally gotten to the point where nobody can really stop the guys using steroids. It’s just wrong. There are even guys out there who actually think that people who dont use steroids should not be allowed to compete because theyre not as good as the people who are on steroids. I dont know how this problem will ever be solved, it may never be solved but making them legal will not make the situation any better

I think you guys need to just 'get off the roids' and look at the larger picture Ohms and I are discussing. Roids muddies the water. What is acceptable? There HAS been athletes with already great vision get lasik to improve upon that. I don't recall who but I do remember hearing it on talk radio and its not as if their medical records are spewed across the internet. Ohms talked about nano technology, TJ surgery which is being used 'pre-emptive'........where does it end? Forget about the drugs, is legal surgery by a medical physician to enhance athletic ability always acceptable? If not, who makes the decision what is and what isn't? (ala Lasik)

Oh, and Ohms........regarding drugs (roids) being prescribed by a doctor would be OK........I point out that most of the roids HGH and steroirds in use 'was' prescribed by doctors. Raiding immoral doctor offfices was how the roids scandal begin to break.

[ohms_law]

Roids muddies the water.

Yea, I think you're right... Steroids (more accurately, Performance Enhancing Drugs in general) have been too politicized.

Personally, my position on all of this stuff is generally "why not?" It's not as though any medical procedure can take Joe Sixpack and turn him into a pro athlete. More importantly, I think one of the biggest criticisms against this issue comes from a "haves vs. have nots" perspective, but there really aren't any "have nots" in athletics. Nobody is going to be giving Little Leaguers Lasik or other procedures just to improve their chances (or at least, I hope not... that's sort of a different issue). The potentially professional quality athletes are shaken out in High School, College, and the minor leagues, and there's always plenty of money available at those levels. Of course, just how much money is and should be available for prospects is a wider issue, but the fact is that the money is there. If the standard moves to include Lasik procedures (or whatever else) for players at the College or minor league level then pretty much all of the players will just do it. By definition their already not "normal" people anyway (in the sense that not everyone can be an athlete), so I just don't see what the problem is with enhancing their abilities.

[Rongar]

yeah but what we want to know is how are you hitting curve balls now a days compared to before...

I have it on reliable authority, that Lasik takes the curl out of the curve...

[metsguy234]

Can someone please tell me the name of one player, professional or not, in any sport, with 20/20 vision, who got Lasik Eye surgery to have incredible eyesight?

While we're naming anything that can enhance athletic performance, aren't Gatorade, Red Bull, and other energy drinks technically performance enhancers? I mean, they give you an added boost of energy.

LOL, see where this reasoning of "If it isn't natural and it makes you better, then it's bad" goes?

[gRYFYN1]

Can someone please tell me the name of one player, professional or not, in any sport, with 20/20 vision, who got Lasik Eye surgery to have incredible eyesight?

While we're naming anything that can enhance athletic performance, aren't Gatorade, Red Bull, and other energy drinks technically performance enhancers? I mean, they give you an added boost of energy.

LOL, see where this reasoning of "If it isn't natural and it makes you better, then it's bad" goes?

OK, so the question is where do you draw the line ? Would it be okay for a player to do that?

[dickay]

Can someone please tell me the name of one player, professional or not, in any sport, with 20/20 vision, who got Lasik Eye surgery to have incredible eyesight?

While we're naming anything that can enhance athletic performance, aren't Gatorade, Red Bull, and other energy drinks technically performance enhancers? I mean, they give you an added boost of energy.

LOL, see where this reasoning of "If it isn't natural and it makes you better, then it's bad" goes?

You're stating my point mets.......agreed, gatorade, red bull, and other energy drinks could give a player a boost. Players of yesteryear maybe didn't have that boost. I agree it's probably foolish to even be discussing them as performance enhancers, BUT.............where does it end and who draws the line??? If one sets precedent by allowing gatorades, red bulls, etc....how can that person get upset when a legal andro is used? Many doctors say HGH when used appropriately can build muscle and be healthy.

These are things we put into our body. I'm taking it a step further and asking the question, what if someone does something to their body to enhance performance? Why even ask the question about Lasik? If it's OK for someone with poor vision to get it and have better than 20/20 vision, why would it be wrong for someone with 20/20 vision to get it and enhance that even more?? Or if your achilles heel is injured, replace it with a prosthetic spring action heel which reduces stress on the body and enhances performance? Or what about the heart transplant I mentioned earlier?

The point is, there is new technologies like these prosthetic legs coming out all the time. We need to look at the long term effects of our decisions on the items we view as insignificant (enhancing vision through surgery).

Here's a good read, and ironically it matched the title of my thread lol.

http://www.slate.com/id/2116858/

I found on a couple websites including this one where Tiger Woods got Lasik to improve his 20/20 vision to 20/15. It also reads that Mark McGwire had high powered contact lenses to improve his 20/20 vision to 20/10.

LOL, it also reads that Gary Sheffield has vision BETTER than 20/20 and still tried to get Lasik. After reading this article, I think i'm going to get it lmao.

[HoustonGM]

But the problem is that using steroids et al, in "safe" supervised doses will not yield any substantial effect. Meaning the only reason to use them is to abuse them.

Depends your definition of "substantial." Steroids in safe, supervised doses, will have an effect.

[ohms_law]

Additionally, it doesn't even matter what anyone has actually done. The fact is that athletes already can have things done.

Again, we're way past the point where any serious athletics (including the Olympics) are performed by average people. None of us here (that I know of, anyway) are capable of going out and competing on a professional level in any sport. So, what's the harm in allowing athletes to enhance what they naturally have and improve our entertainment value?

[dickay]

Additionally, it doesn't even matter what anyone has actually done. The fact is that athletes already can have things done.

Again, we're way past the point where any serious athletics (including the Olympics) are performed by average people. None of us here (that I know of, anyway) are capable of going out and competing on a professional level in any sport. So, what's the harm in allowing athletes to enhance what they naturally have and improve our entertainment value?

I'm somewhat on the other side on this issue ohms. I'm more posing the questions, but I do think there is harm as it raises the bar and makes becoming competitive in these individual sports even further away and more difficult. A trickle down effect through the minors, college sports, high school sports and younger occurs. Plus, if all technological advances are allowed to better then talent pretty soon they'll be like robots playing each other.

No doubt todays athletes are the greatest of all time due to improvements in a multitude of areas throughout history, but i think when we are talking about surgery's to enhance performance I think we are skirting a moral line I'd prefer not to cross. Today it is eye surgery, tomorrow pitchers are getting titanium alloy shoulders with nano-particles to allow fluid motion of the arm through the delivery.

Too much technology can be a bad thing.

[ohms_law]

Yea, and I don't think there's really such a thing as "too much" technology. As long as it's safe (including side effects), I don't really see what the problem is.

What about genetic engineering? If we could ensure that people are simply not genetically predisposed to diseases (and, we're close. closer than people generally think) what's wrong with that? Less cancers, less heart disease, things like that. Then, you move from there to enhancing the potential for strength, lung capacity, heart capacity, etc...