I still can't grasp this

[HoustonGM]

Yeah recovering faster is no advantage. Playing longer isn't either. Just because it can't be quantified in a numerical sense, doesn't mean I have to assume it has no benefit. That would be ignorant of me.

When did I say there was no advantage? I said: There has still been no evidence of what steroids do to a player's offensive stats.

You think people would put their bodies at risk for no gain? Seriously?

Maybe. If they think it helps them.

The 5 wal-mart employees don't have a financial or cultural impact on the level of MLB players. How can people not comprehend this? Try apples and apples people, not apples and oranges.

Okay. Why haven't Roger Goodell and the boatloads of football players that have done steroids been hauled in front of Congress?

Baseball has several exemptions given to it by the US gov't, so they have every right to make sure that MLB is fair, since baseball was given certain advantages. I'm sorry you think that this is all a scam, since it isn't.

There are many many more important things for Congress to be spending time on.

[RickD]

There are many many more important things for Congress to be spending time on.

Exactly. Why waste America's time....we are in an era of huge gas prices, a weakening economy, a war (or 2), etc and Congress thinks THIS is of national importance!

[HoustonGM]

The NFL has taken much better care of drug problems in house, thats why.

Baseball has done very well in policing steroid use in the past few years. The real reason is probably because big freaky guys in football are expected, and because football's records aren't as "hallowed" and "sacred" as baseball's are. When a star football player tests positive for steroids, he serves his suspension and nobody gives a **** after that. Imagine if a star baseball player tested positive in this upcoming year. You think he'd be able to just go on like nothing happened after he served the suspension? No. Doubt it.

If you think being stronger and faster and more healed doesn't help you offensively, then there is no common ground for us. But if you do, like most of us do, then just because it can't be ,mathematically quantified doesn't mean we just ignorantly dismiss it.

Once again, I said: There has still been no evidence of what steroids do to a player's offensive stats. It's not that hard to understand. That sentence is not saying that steroids don't help your offensive statistics. It's saying, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE AS TO WHAT THEY DO TO THE OFFENSIVE STATISTICS.

I'm glad you take an interest in what Congress does. I feel this is worthy, since pro sports have many legal exemptions, and they should be watched by Congress as a price to pay for these exemptions. 'nuff said

Multiple Congresspeople agreed that it was a waste of time. And, once again, why is baseball the only professional sport being hauled in front of Congress? It wouldn't have anything to do with the government helping a private investigation ran by a former senator (WHICH IS WRONG, in and of itself), and than doing anything it takes to downplay any objections to the report, would it? No. Couldn't be.

[HoustonGM]

And yeah who would think the national pastime would be of national importance?

How about, the palpable mass on Roger Clemens' buttocks isn't of national importance.

The Clemens hearings were a joke. They were a waste of time. And accomplished nothing.

[RickD]

How about, the palpable mass on Roger Clemens' buttocks isn't of national importance.

The Clemens hearings were a joke. They were a waste of time. And accomplished nothing.

Agreed but this is turning into a yankeehater feels one way vs. HGM, RickD feeling the other thread so I'm opting out. We've beat the topic to death and are firm in our opinions. Let's move on.

[Arctic Blast]

I agree with Houston, for the most part, on this issue. It is obvious that the lone reason government has jumped in so massively is for the face time. Now, my feelings would be different if this involved, say, the NCAA, as further allegations of corruption and drug abuse there could be enough to (in my opinion, FINALLY) strip that organization of it's tax exempt status.

Did a lot of players use? Of course they did. It is simply impossible to bulk up to the degree Bonds did, in that amount of time, without chemical help (just as it was ridiculous for numerous football players to do the same. And, in the interests of fairness, I'll throw out a few names here...David Boston and Bill Romanowski. And, a few guys I have LONG suspected, Vincent Brown, Jason Sehorn and Kendrell Bell).

Government should step in to try and do something about performance enhancement abuse at LOWER levels of sport, certainly. I wouldn't have any problem with that at all...but that isn't going to be BIG news, because it doesn't involve BIG names (which, frankly, is more an indictment of the pathetic state of modern media, but that's a whole different diatribe). So, they go after the pros, because that will garner the headlines.

Do I lose respect for a guy when his name pops up? Absolutely. Bonds and Clemens are scum (of course, I pretty much already thought that). So is everyone else involved (and that INCLUDES Selig, Fehr, and any/every owner and GM and manager that knew, by the way...if we're going to toss people under the bus, let's throw EVERYONE under it). Does that mean I stop watching the sport? Obviously not, since I'm a massive football fan. Sorry to say this folks, but you will find abuse of performance enhancing drugs in every major sport these days (the lone exception probably being auto racing, where bulking up isn't exactly beneficial). That's a said, pitiful fact, but it is still a fact.

[HoustonGM]

Unless there's evidence hidden from Clemens still and they wanted to see if he would 'hang' himself into a perjrury charge.

Aka, a witch hunt.

I am confused on why you keep repeating 'we don't know what steroids does to statistics'. The amount it helps doesn't matter. It would help on equalizing some stats out. It just seems like you say that to sort of imply that steroids dont help out with stats, without really saying it. Since the amount that it helps is pointless, since cheating is cheating, I don't really see another viable explanation.

Suggesting that it would've been possible for Pedro Martinez to break ERA and strikeout records had steroids not been around makes me think that you tihnk steroids have a gigantic effect on statistics. I simply stated that there's no evidence as to what steroids do help when it comes to offensive stats to refute that idea.

[HoustonGM]

Since we agree the steroid gain can't be quantified, I don't find it silly to suggest Pedro MIGHT have accomplished really special things, had he not gone against a bunch of people with an advantage.

I think Pedro did accomplish really special things.

That's why you adjust for context.

I don't think he would've had an ERA below 0.96 or struck out 380+ batters though.

[Wassit3]

why is baseball the only professional sport being hauled in front of Congress? It wouldn't have anything to do with the government helping a private investigation ran by a former senator (WHICH IS WRONG, in and of itself), and than doing anything it takes to downplay any objections to the report, would it? No. Couldn't be.

it is not, remeber dana stubblefeild is also being indicted for steriod use, an ex nfler...

[HoustonGM]

Stubblefield's not being hauled in front of Congress for an all-day hearing that accomplishes nothing.

He was part of BALCO, which federal investigators nabbed completely, and then Stubblefield admitted to lying to the investigators underoath. So, he's being indicted for perjury. The government was good to go after BALCO. It should be going after the major distributors of illegal drugs. Well, actually, I think drugs should be legal, so, I don't think they should, but that's another topic completely...as is, they go after drug dealers, so they should. I don't see what going after Roger Clemens does. When did drug investigations ever work like that? Let's give the dealers immunity to catch the users. I always thought it was the other way around.

[dps]

There really isn't any need for discussion on the war, since Bush has decided his policy and is going to stick with it.

And yeah who would think the national pastime would be of national importance?

A pastime shouldn't be the focus of government activity, IMO. Then again, unlike HGM, I'm a small-government type conservative, and there's a heck of a lot of stuff that the government sticks its nose into that I think it shouldn't.

As for the war, President Bush is going to stick to his policy, be he isn't going to stick around as President all that much longer.