I still can't grasp this

[RickD]

Well I think the whole improving with age proves you cheat theory is just bunk. Some guys learn how to condition themselves, play smarter, etc. Even in football Jerry Rice put up great numbers by playing smarter and conditioning as he aged.

I remember seeing pics of Nolan working out as he aged and continuing to work on conditioning.

I also re-watched part of the Hearing on this mess and loved the self-serving criticism the congressman had of themselves...."We should not be wasting time with this, does not serve the nation well, wastes taxpayer money, but since I'm here let me talk to Roger Clemens."

[Arctic Blast]

There is one reason I think Clemens used, and it's the same reason I think Bonds and sosa and Giambi used. Their cap sizes increased repeatedly during the periods in question, which means their HEAD sizes increased. Grown men do not typically tend to have their skulls start expansion when that man is in his 30's and 40's...doesn't happen. There is no other explanation for this phenomenon.

[HoustonGM]

Is there anywhere that documents the cap sizes of players??

[CatKnight]

I dunno, I'm inclined to go with PECOTA's view on things (the last quoted article.) It's not unheard of for players to stabilize and continue performing well into their late 30s.

IMPROVE, as Barry Bonds did? That calls for explanation. Not just for one season, which can be an anomalous random spike - 'the luck of the baseball gods' or some such - but over a few years?

I don't care what new workout regime you have...your body is going to age and start breaking down. Ads like "I feel better at 42 than I did at 22" are only true if you weren't really doing anything to help yourself at 22...in which case you couldn't have been MLB caliber.

Longevity and a SLOW decline? Mmm...well, it's happened before, so I have to concede the possibility that it's happening here.

Cap sizes? LOL!

[HoustonGM]

Well there is a report due out to challenge the BP findings so I will reconsider after reading the new report.

Where's this information from?

And BP's article isn't really "findings." I don't know how you really can "challenge it." All it did was go back to before he was alleged to have started steroids, and projected him forward using PECOTA, and compared that to how he actually did...

As of right now I find it hard to believe Roger wasn't on the juice, because of overwhelming evidence.

I don't doubt that he used steroids either, because I think most players did at least try it at some point that played in the late 90's and early 00's. But, the evidence against Clemens is not overwhelming. The only evidence is the word of a drug-dealing, alleged rapist, proven liar.

[Reade]

proven liar.

So is Fraudger, unless you believe his best friend and closest teammate, Andy Pettite and his wife are both lying about Fraudger too. Seems kinda of funny that all these people are lying on Fraudger, they all must really hate Fraudger, must be a big *sshole to be around.

And if Mcnamee is such a piece of *hit why the **** did Fraudger keep him as trainer for so long?

[HoustonGM]

Brian McNamee stood in front of Congress and admitted to lie after lie after lie. He is a liar. That's not to say that he's lying about Clemens, but it is to say that the guy does not have much credibility.

Also, Andy Pettitte doesn't have to be lying. He said Clemens told him that he did HGH, and then when he asked years later, Clemens said he must've misunderstood him. Pettitte says multiple times that it was a possibility that he misunderstood. He wasn't 100% confidant about the conversations. And Pettitte's wife just said what Pettitte told her, so, if Pettite misunderstood, than, so did his wife...

[HoustonGM]

I think HGM has a man crush on Dan Burton, snicker. Never would have figured HGM as a conservative.

No, I don't have a man crush on Dan Burton. I despise most politicians. And I'm not conservative. But he was one of the few that actually took to exposing the facts about McNamee instead of focusing solely on Clemens.

Past lies do not guarantee he is lying now

As I acknowledged.

so the correct sentence for you to have typed is he was a liar.

He has lied about steroids. In the past few months. The man IS a liar, and arguing otherwise is just arguing semantics.

The trainer doesn't need much creditability when all (ok most) of the evidence corraberates (Yeah I misremebered how to spell that word) what he is saying.

There isn't any evidence. Currently, the only evidence is what he says, and Pettitte's shaky testimony, which PETTITTE HIMSELF admitted is shaky.

Oh, and Pettitte has lied too. You know, the whole, "I did HGH for two days and only two days" and then a couple months later admitting to have done it more?

Everybody involved in this stupid situation has lied. I really don't know why baseball, and especially Congress, is wasting time on it anymore. We get it. Tons of players used steroids and HGH. Instead of going on witch hunts to try and catch people that shot syringes up their butts 10 years ago, why don't we put attention on furthering the testing policies for the present and future?

[HoustonGM]

What is the point of going on witch hunts to crucify stars when the reality is that likely the majority of players used?

[HoustonGM]

What does you knowing which indiviudal players took steroids do? Seriously. What is the point? You aren't getting the money back.

How about we just accept that everybody involved in the game of baseball ripped you off (if you feel you were ripped off, which I don't) - the players, the owners, the commissioner, the media. They all played a role in allowing the steroid problem to fester. So, instead of going on a witch hunt to find out which stars did steroids (because we all know that nobody cares if a player did steroids as long as he wasn't any good), just accept that baseball as a whole ripped you off.

Or just move on. Is it really THAT big of a deal? Obviously not, because you're still a fan of the game and you're still following it.


Oh, and yeah, I don't care if you want to know about it. I just don't think that MLB (and especially Congress) should waste the exorbitant amount of time that they are.

[HoustonGM]

They wrecked the sanctity of the game, I have no problems with people trying to restore it. I am still mad, but what can I do? I love baseball and MLB has the best players to watch.

The game was really sanctified back when black people weren't allowed to play. And back when there used to be bowls of amphetamines in every clubhouse. And back when cocaine was rampant.

Sorry, the game was never some sanctified holy place that people are making it out to be. Sure, you have every right to be mad about it and all. But please, don't act like baseball was some shining beacon of holiness and innocence, and when steroids came around, it wrecked everything. There has always been drugs. There has always been cheating. Baseball is still baseball.

[HoustonGM]

How can you not feel ripped off?

Because I paid to watch baseball, and I still got to see baseball whether or not some players were on steroids. And I enjoy watching baseball for what it is.

How many players would have made the Majors if there was more turnover?

Who knows.

Especially with you being more into the stats part of the game, I would imagine you would be even more mad.

Statistics are just a record of what happened on the field. You have to look at them in context.

If Pedro Martinez wasnt juiced, as I tend to believe, who knows what he could have done without the majority of people cheating? Could he have set the single season era record? Or K's?

Doubt it. 0.96 is the modern ERA record (since 1901). Pedro's best was 1.74. I don't think that if you take steroids out of some of the players he faced, it'd shave 3/4ths of a run off his era. He does hold the modern record for ERA+, though.

And strikeouts, considering Randy Johnson reached 3rd place on the modern all-time single season strikeout list in 2001, when steroid use may have been at a peak, I don't think Pedro would've surpassed Nolan Ryan.

Offensive levels were high for reasons beyond just steroid use. There was very likely a change in the ball in the mid-90's. Parks were smaller. Players trained better. There has still been no evidence of what steroids do to a player's offensive stats.

[RickD]

Brian McNamee stood in front of Congress and admitted to lie after lie after lie. He is a liar. That's not to say that he's lying about Clemens, but it is to say that the guy does not have much credibility.

Also, Andy Pettitte doesn't have to be lying. He said Clemens told him that he did HGH, and then when he asked years later, Clemens said he must've misunderstood him. Pettitte says multiple times that it was a possibility that he misunderstood. He wasn't 100% confidant about the conversations. And Pettitte's wife just said what Pettitte told her, so, if Pettite misunderstood, than, so did his wife...

Sounds like a reasonable argument to me! McNamee just lied too much in my book.

[RickD]

Baseball has, as mentioned previously, never been a "holy" sport. I remember the Cocaine headlines of the 80's...I remember reading about the alcohol binges of players who could not give their best because they were so smashed. Like all sports, the players are human, they screw up, doesn't make it right but it happens. No one cares who uses HGH on Main Street and no one complained when the stat surges started in the 90s!

[RickD]

My statement that no one cares who uses HGH on Main Street means we are not having congressional hearings on rather 5 Wal-Mart employees are using HGH! Congress is only involved in this due to the Face time on TV and to meet Baseball players, imo! Secondly just today Andy Pettite had this to say:

"HGH was not banned by players and owners until January 2005.
"If it was illegal in baseball, I wouldn't have done it," Pettitte said.

We are getting worked up as a society over something that was LEGAL at the time.

I in no way implied anyone who cared was a no one. Please let's not personalize this.