moving "right" on the defensive spectrum

[SleepyCA]

One thing that has been bugging me is that players moving right on the Bill James defensive spectrum, to a less difficult position, get penalized defensively.

For instance, almost any player who can play 3B can play 1B. But when you move a gold glove 3B to 1B, his fielding ability decreases in the game, when in reality a good 3B would be an excellent 1B. The same goes for SS -> 2B and most especially CF -> RF/LF and RF <-> LF. RF and LF range and fielding should be almost identical, with the only difference being "arm"- but even that value shouldn't change. It's just more important that the RF has a good arm; his arm strength doesn't actually go down by jogging 300 feet to the right.

Also, position changes should be commutative. If you change a SS to a 2B, and then immediately turn him back into a SS, his SS fielding skill is currently significantly degraded from where it began. It doesn't work that way IRL, and shouldn't work that way in BM. If you change a SS -> 2B, and then move that same guy back to SS, his numbers should return to where they started.

Obviously some positions would have to be handled uniquely; C -> SS should almost never work, but C->1B/OF happens a lot. P -> position should be allowed but the results should be unpredictable (IE Rick Ankiel, Babe Ruth).

Thoughts?

[HoustonGM]

I agree. I've long argued for overhauling the fielding rating aspect.

[Imgran]

One thing that has been bugging me is that
Also, position changes should be commutative. If you change a SS to a 2B, and then immediately turn him back into a SS, his SS fielding skill is currently significantly degraded from where it began. It doesn't work that way IRL, and shouldn't work that way in BM. If you change a SS -> 2B, and then move that same guy back to SS, his numbers should return to where they started.

Not sure I agree with this, but there should be some sort of experience rating involved, and converting to a position you have a lot of prior experience should reduce any additional penalties, at least.

[Alloutwar]

This is a great point, which HGM has made before. Fielding should be clearly divided;
1) the fielder's ratings, at each position, which can certainly rise (with practice) and decline (say, after 2 months of neglect)
2) Their current primary position, which you should be able to modify without penalty; this will let the player know what to focus on, and let the AI sort best for lineups over long sims. In addition to the primary 9, you could have IF for utility infielder, and OF for utility outfielder; those are used on some screens today, but not the actual player card. So there's the beginning of this logic in place...just needs to be used.

The lower-position thing should be reflected, too; I've had declining 3B's that I can't shift to 1B, because they're rating a 59 or something there; what, they can't stretch on that side of the infield as well? also, I've had bad outfielders (rated 70 or so) that I want to put at first; but once again, fielding might be 69 in RF, but it's an atrocious 43 at 1B. Is that accurate?

[snapper]

One thing that has been bugging me is that players moving right on the Bill James defensive spectrum, to a less difficult position, get penalized defensively.

For instance, almost any player who can play 3B can play 1B. But when you move a gold glove 3B to 1B, his fielding ability decreases in the game, when in reality a good 3B would be an excellent 1B. The same goes for SS -> 2B and most especially CF -> RF/LF and RF <-> LF. RF and LF range and fielding should be almost identical, with the only difference being "arm"- but even that value shouldn't change. It's just more important that the RF has a good arm; his arm strength doesn't actually go down by jogging 300 feet to the right.

Also, position changes should be commutative. If you change a SS to a 2B, and then immediately turn him back into a SS, his SS fielding skill is currently significantly degraded from where it began. It doesn't work that way IRL, and shouldn't work that way in BM. If you change a SS -> 2B, and then move that same guy back to SS, his numbers should return to where they started.

Obviously some positions would have to be handled uniquely; C -> SS should almost never work, but C->1B/OF happens a lot. P -> position should be allowed but the results should be unpredictable (IE Rick Ankiel, Babe Ruth).

Thoughts?

If find that I get better results by just playing the guy out of position, at the easier position. After a few years, his primary position changes, and usually the hit is less than converting. Also, if something changes, you can move him back.

[dps]

If find that I get better results by just playing the guy out of position, at the easier position. After a few years, his primary position changes, and usually the hit is less than converting. Also, if something changes, you can move him back.

The big problem with changing positions IMO isn't when you actually move a player to another position (either by converting him or simply by playing him at a new position on a permanent basis as noted by snapper, thereby changing his primary position), but rather the penalties for playing out of position when you shift someone temporarily to cover an injury or a player being tired and needing a rest. Sure, if I try to play my first baseman at short while my SS is on the DL, I should expect some bad defense, but if I put my starting CF in left while the LF is out, I should expect that he'll do fine--but in the game, he's penalized.

There's another thread about this issue from about 2-4 months ago (maybe longer than that; I'm not sure).

[Imgran]

also, I've had bad outfielders (rated 70 or so) that I want to put at first; but once again, fielding might be 69 in RF, but it's an atrocious 43 at 1B. Is that accurate?

While first base does require the least range of any defensive position, it is categorically untrue that "anyone can learn it." I wouldn't be shocked if an aging and declining outfielder with little to no infield experience was exactly that bad at it.

First base is the destination for third basemen who lose a step of range and don't quite have the arm to gun down the fast ones anymore. If decline has gotten to the point that actual fielding instincts/hands are shot it's time for DH/PH duties no matter which side of the infield you're on.

[gosensgo101]

While first base does require the least range of any defensive position, it is categorically untrue that "anyone can learn it." I wouldn't be shocked if an aging and declining outfielder with little to no infield experience was exactly that bad at it.

First base is the destination for third basemen who lose a step of range and don't quite have the arm to gun down the fast ones anymore. If decline has gotten to the point that actual fielding instincts/hands are shot it's time for DH/PH duties no matter which side of the infield you're on.

Honestly I can't see Barry Bonds making a stretch at 1st base. Anyways, as a first baseman myself, the best I've ever played with or against infact, its not somewhere that just anyone can play. This is especially seen in little league, as not everyone can play 1st base because some people just don't have the eye-hand coordination. Of course in the majors most players can catch a ball, but fielding grounders and making the stretch. Being tall helps too

Anyways, stay with me, here's what I'd like to see for the fielding system.

1)Players would have ratings at each position.
2)As a player plays a position he improves at it
3)As a player plays less at a position, he declines at it
4)Any position a player has played extensively in the past, they can improve at it much easier
5)At spring training you could train a player at a certain position and he would improve.
6)A SS with 70 arm, 90 range and 90 fielding would eventually become probobly something like an 80 arm. 80 range and 80 fielding at 2B.
7)Players should have the same ratings in LF, CF and RF except fielding, which improves as they play a certain position.
8)Players should have a really hard time moving to C
9)Players should move right on the spectrum much easier than to the left
10)In the minors you should atleast be allowed to set the position a player plays.
11)Primary Position is more or less an indicator of what position the player currently plays best at.
12)Lefties should suck badly in the IF and at C.

[mparks1973]

I agree with most of these statements. I don't like seeing Frank Chance(1901) taking a hit defensively to move to 1B from C when he has played it before. It's usaully a pretty significant change such as 80+ overall rating before and 70-75 overall after switch. I haven't tried going to left per se but have tried a 2b or two at 3b with ok results given the era I usually play in. I wish there was a way to change a player to pitcher(some teams have had to have their players pitch several outs) or turn a pitcher to outfield(B. Ruth).

[Imgran]

Why should lefties take a hit at catcher? I'll grant you that you don't see them there very often but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a lefthanded catcher. I can't think of anything they'd really do all that much worse that a righthanded catcher, unlike say a lefty shortstop who would probably have a tough time making strong, accurate throws from the hole, or a lefthanded third baseman not being able to gather power by throwing across his body on a barehand play and having to take that extra split second to gather and throw, meaning a lefty would generally be easier to bunt on down the third base line.

For that matter I don't see too much of what a second baseman does that a lefty couldn't do

Most of what a catcher does seems in theory to be doable by people of either handedness since it involves calling a game, blocking the pitch, and making throws to all bases. If a righty catcher has to be able to throw accurately to both first and third, I don't see where lefthanders have that much of a disadvantage. 90% of catching is footwork anyway.

[SirKodiak]

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=112055

[mparks1973]

I actually try to draft lefties and switch hitters when I can though I guess it would hinder some positions. Does the game make allowances for fielding when a player is left handed?

[SirKodiak]

re: left handed catchers

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...hers-for-2006/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-people-speak/
http://bb_catchers.tripod.com/catchers/catchleft.htm

[Redsauce]

Also a couple of other quick links:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...?threadid=5373
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomi...nded-catchers/

[gosensgo101]

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=112055

I would love to the high heat defensive system implemented.