Schilling on Clemens

[HoustonGM]

HoustonGM- just interested in your perspective on how the olympic committee treated Marion Jones. I thought they were really hard on her I mean asking that her team mates give back their madals and so on.

I don't follow any sports besides baseball, so I don't know enough about the Jones incident to give my perspective. All I know really is that she tested positive, had a teary-eyed admission and apology at some press conference, and was asked to give up her medals.

I don't even know really what specific events Jones did, just that she ran track and field. Her teammates that were asked to give up their medals, was it in like a relay or something? Either way, I don't think teammates should have to give up their awards because they happened to be on a team with a roid user.

I don't like how people point to the Olympics and say, "See! Marion Jones and Ben Johnson had to give up their awards and records because they used steroids!" and then use that to justify removing awards, records, stats, and Hall of Fame consideration from alleged steroid users in baseball. Ignore the fundamental difference that Jones and Johnson were actually caught "red-handed", while most baseball players just have differing amounts of circumstantial evidence against them. There is a huge difference between the Olympics and a team sport like baseball. Baseball's statistics, awards, trophies, etc. are all intertwined with each other. In most track and field events, it's just up to each individual athlete. That's why removing medals can be justified - they're cheating only affected them. Removing statistics from a baseball player will change the statistics of every other baseball player he ever played against, wreaking havoc upon the statistical record of the game. Removing awards and giving it to runner-ups still leaves an award being given to a player who was affected by steroids, indirectly or otherwise.

The fact that baseball is a team sport is why removing records, stats and awards from steroid users can't be justified by pointing to individual sports like the Olympics.

[sardins]

Actually, Joe Carter's walk-off Ring winner off of Mitch Williams kept the Phillies from winning the series in '93, but you're right. The sentiment is still the same. There's a lot of absent-minded hypocricy (spelling??) going around from players supposedly clean. How long ago was it when Ken Caminiti died. Roids were a big issue then, but where was the wave of player outrage?

[HoustonGM]

Actually, Joe Carter's walk-off Ring winner off of Mitch Williams kept the Phillies from winning the series in '93, but you're right. The sentiment is still the same.

Don't I look stupid. I was thinking NL championship ring, yet it came out World Series ring...heh

There's a lot of absent-minded hypocricy (spelling??) going around from players supposedly clean. How long ago was it when Ken Caminiti died. Roids were a big issue then, but where was the wave of player outrage?

Yep, that is another reason that I don't believe that players from this era should be barred from the Hall of Fame on the basis of steroid use. We know some names, and we don't know others, and just because there's no public accusations against a player does not mean he didn't take steroids. And even if he didn't, all the players in the game shoulder some responsibility for not speaking out against this. If the clean players really cared, they could have forced the Player's Union to act, or just at least made their objections public. Everybody in baseball during this period is partially to blame for the steroid problems, and that is why I think that singling accused players out and barring them into the Hall while allowing other players from this era in, who still may have done some sort of PED, is hypocritical, unfair, and just plain irrational.

[HoustonGM]

Thanks for your reply, I wasn't really arguing anything just wanted to know what you thought. One thing though- Jones wasn't really caught red-handed she pretty much had the same circumstantial evidence against her that many other athletes do. Her ex-Husband boyfriend whatever said he injected her, a link to Victor Conte. I don't think anyone was sure until she admitted it and I don't know what pressure was put on her to do this. Again thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Ah, well, thanks for the correction. Even so, they at least have actual proof - a confession.

[Reade]

Give up this years ring because of Gagne

[kenny1234]

The situation with Marion Jones is very different. First, I'm pretty sure that she admitted to using steroids before being stripped of her medal. If she had continued to deny using steroids it would have been interesting to see if the IOC would strip her and her team of the medal without definite proof (ie. a positive drug test). This is essentially what Lance Armstrong has done - denied that he used steroids and there is no legally definitive proof of steroid use so he does not lose his Tour de France wins. If he admitted it he would lose the titles.

Second, in the Olympics if any person is found to have used a banned substance than any team they participated on is ruled to be disqualified - ie. a single hockey player that played in one round robin game is found to have used steroids then the whole team is disqualified - regardless of what happened in all the other games.

The difference in baseball is that there aren't clear rules - and there doesn't appear to be any interest in creating rules that punish the team instead of the player. This would be a giant step into fixing the problem - make a GM decide if he wants to give a suspected steroid user a contract knowing that there would be a significant team punishment for having a player caught using steroids. I don't think matching the Olympics is possible or a good idea - I'm not sure what disqualifying a team in MLB would even mean but a team punishment such as the loss of draft picks would make a GM think twice about signing someone like Jason Giambi.

[rogue9]

following Schillings logic he should give up his series rings because of the PED users on his team ...

[rogue9]

Give up this years ring because of Gagne

ah, didn't see this before i posted my comment.

[robinhoodnik]

I like Schilling. I like guys LIKE Schilling. Most athletes are absolutely boring automatons. Interviews with them are utterly pointless, as they simple spew out the usual cliches like some sort of brainwashed droid. So when someone comes along that actually SAYS something, I tend to pay attention. And so does the media, who are ALSO sick and tired of the usual 'Troops from Dullsville', so of course they're going to focus on anybody who breaks from the mundane party line.

Agreed, it's amusing to note that people complain about the cliche' answers that 95% of athletes give when questioned, yet, when someone like Schilling comes along and speaks their mind, they're a blowhard, an a**hole, a loudmouth, etc. I wish that more people were as straightforward as Schilling is.
As for where were the clean guys, a lot of them did complain, but were drowned out or ignored during the awe fest surrounding the homerun glut. A lot of them went along with the union line, whether they liked it or not.

[Arctic Blast]

Agreed, it's amusing to note that people complain about the cliche' answers that 95% of athletes give when questioned, yet, when someone like Schilling comes along and speaks their mind, they're a blowhard, an a**hole, a loudmouth, etc. I wish that more people were as straightforward as Schilling is.
As for where were the clean guys, a lot of them did complain, but were drowned out or ignored during the awe fest surrounding the homerun glut. A lot of them went along with the union line, whether they liked it or not.

That is a good point. I do remember a few of the more intrepid sports reporters asking questions about where all these home runs were coming from, and how all these guys suddenly started slugging out of their minds. They were quickly hushed by the rest of the hacks and many players as being paranoid and somewhat out of their minds.

[HoustonGM]

That is a good point. I do remember a few of the more intrepid sports reporters asking questions about where all these home runs were coming from, and how all these guys suddenly started slugging out of their minds. They were quickly hushed by the rest of the hacks and many players as being paranoid and somewhat out of their minds.

The same guys that drowned them out are the ones now calling for removal of records, banning from the Hall, etc. It's pure hypocrisy.

[robinhoodnik]

The same guys that drowned them out are the ones now calling for removal of records, banning from the Hall, etc. It's pure hypocrisy.

If they're not in the hall yet, it's not a big deal to keep them out. No one's going in and yanking anyone already enshrined out (though I wouldn't mind if they did, if someone was using steroids). They gambled, they lost. Too freakin' bad, boo hoo. I'm sure the mega millions they screwed everyone out of will be some consolation to them in their declining years.

[dps]

Ironic how Schilling and John Kruk have been recently vocal about their outrage.

Well, just looking at Kruk during his career, you gotta admit that he may be the least likely player of the last 20 years to have been using steroids. If he was abusing anything, it was french fries.

[michaelg123789]

Interesting.

[Reade]

thought provoking