Clemens is no different than Bonds

[ohms_law]

February 12th.
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/

[Wassit3]

February 12th.
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/

cool, hey did I mention that on this past Sat I flew into San Jose Int airport and saw the team plane for the Texas Rangers?? as you know San Jose is just a stones throw away from Oakland and San Fran....

[ohms_law]

Nifty. Did you take a picture?

[Wassit3]

Nifty. Did you take a picture?

I wanted to but my camera was in my bag! I had half a mind to drive back by the run way on my way out to take one but the fiancee and kid were tired and hungry...

[ohms_law]

Ah, too bad. I've been there with the wife and kid though, so I understand completely.

[ragecage]

I can tell you the exact year he started using. During the 1995 offseason. Just look at his numbers. He was often injured starting in 1993 to 1995 and posted lowly numbers. Well low numbers for Clemens.

1993 - (missed 5 starts, 11-14 4.46 ERA)
1994 - (missed 9 starts, 9-7 2.85 ERA)
1995 - (missed 11 starts, 10-5 4.18 ERA)

Boston (GM Dan Duquette) figured he was getting old and would probably be injury plagued the rest of his career. He was even quoted to say "Clemens is in the twilight of his career."

Obviously when you had the career Clemens has had up to that point it hurts to spend your whole career with the club only to be called out and say your no longer the man you once was. And If I was Clemens and had that competitiveness in me, I would want to find anyway possible to ressurect my career just to shove it in Duquettes face. Which he found his answer in PED's.

And another thing for the critics, name me one pitcher that pitched this brutal in a string of 3 seasons to come back to greatness. Its 99% the same story with all pitchers. Your either once a bum and become great (i.e. Dave Stewart, Chris Carpenter.) or your once great and become a bum, (Orel Hershiser, Fernando Valenzeula) but there is no in between where your great, then you suck, then you return to greatness. I cant think of one pitcher besides Clemens.

There you have it folks, my argument, seperate the bs from the apple butter and you got to be a ***** to think Clemens did what he did natural.

[ragecage]

M-o-r-o-n censored?? cmon.

[Reade]

That word started a nasty little fight not too long ago, and its no longer a word that is used here.

It used to refer to people that had a mental handicap or mentally deficiency.

[ragecage]

That word started a nasty little fight not too long ago, and its no longer a word that is used here.

It used to refer to people that had a mental handicap or mentally deficiency.

how bout the word naive? Would that be better?

[HoustonGM]

I can tell you the exact year he started using. During the 1995 offseason.

That's not what his trainer says.

Just look at his numbers.

You can't just "look at his numbers" and determine if a player did steroids. We don't know just what steroids do for numbers. Hank Aaron had by far his best season at age 37. Does that mean he did steroids?

And another thing for the critics, name me one pitcher that pitched this brutal in a string of 3 seasons to come back to greatness.

Woah. Brutal? ERA+'s from 1993 to 1995 were 104, 177, and 116. Then 139 in 1996. Sure, it wasn't his all-time greatness, but every good pitcher has had some fairly average seasons. His 1994 was really really really really good, despite missing starts. His 1993 and 1995 were above average. This is far from "brutal."

Its 99% the same story with all pitchers. Your either once a bum and become great (i.e. Dave Stewart, Chris Carpenter.) or your once great and become a bum, (Orel Hershiser, Fernando Valenzeula) but there is no in between where your great, then you suck, then you return to greatness. I cant think of one pitcher besides Clemens.

I can't think of anybody off the top of my head, but I find it hard to believe that never has any pitcher in the history of the game gone from good, to average, to good (maybe not for the length that Clemens returned to be great, until he was 45, but surely, there's somebody that was really good, had a string of a couple average or so seasons, and then went back to being good for a couple years). If I find somebody, I'll come back.

[ohms_law]

...Nolan Ryan? Hey, he pitched until he was 46! He must have used PED's.

[HoustonGM]

Well, I don't think he was talking about longevity. He was talking more about a player being really great, then, in his words, having a string of brutal years (which, Clemens didn't, Clemens went from really great, to a string of 3 years where he went from slightly above average to great to slightly above average, and then went back to being really great), and then going back to being really great. Ryan was always pretty much an inconsistent pitcher, going from good to great to average to good a lot.

Look at his ERA+'s and there's like no correlation. From 1976 to 1981 he went from 99 to 141 to 98 to 113 to 98 to 194. He was never really consistently great, with a string of "bad" years, and then back to being consistently great.

(And again, Clemens wasn't either. He was consistently great with some less than great, but still above average, years thrown in. I mean, in 1999, a year after he allegedly took steroids, he had what is statistically the worse year of his career.)

[Reade]

Nice story about good old roger
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/colum...1&sportCat=mlb

[lkcostas]

That word started a nasty little fight not too long ago, and its no longer a word that is used here.

It used to refer to people that had a mental handicap or mentally deficiency.

Are "imbecile" and "idiot" still ok? According to Wiki, they were part of the same scale.

[RickD]

Oh PEDS....all this time I was trying to figure out what everyone had against PEZ! I love those little dispensers.