Biggest Bad Guy in Baseball?

[Arctic Blast]

Ty Cobb. What an utter piece of **** of a human being.

[robinhoodnik]

Yeah, I know, I understand why people view him differently, but again, the same can be said for Ty Cobb. He was an elite basestealer without the increased intimidation from wearing spikes on his cleats.

They're both products of their times, but one did things that are selfish, greedy, egotistical, jerkish, while the other actively hurt other human beings. I just don't see how you can objectively look at the two people and truly believe that Barry Bonds was a worse person.

Approximately 80 years have passed since Cobb played. Most people only know about him from reading books, seeing shows like Ken Burns' movies, or recollections of older people. Barry's case is fresh and current. Time has taken a lot of the edge off of Cobbs actions, and since he's dead, no one can let him have it the way they can Barry. Well, that's not exactly true either. He got it in Field of Dreams didn't he? In Cobb as well, though that movie wasn't very good IMO.

[robinhoodnik]

Even assuming that he is racist, a violent racist is worse than one that just holds racist beliefs.

I don't think there's much difference between either myself.

[HoustonGM]

I know why people are voting for Barry. It's fresh, and a lot of people have a deep personal hatred of him for whatever reason. But I think if anybody actually just takes a couple minutes to actually consider the two and understand the aspects of why each person is reviled, the only logical conclusion is that Ty Cobb was a worse person.

[HoustonGM]

I don't think there's much difference between either myself.

You think that simply having beliefs that some races are better than others and not acting upon it is equivalent to actually harming other human beings?

[robinhoodnik]

That is a logical conclusion for you. Someone else may decide that someone who abuses hypodermically injected drugs, and allows their "best friend" to rot in prison for over a year is the worse person.

[robinhoodnik]

You think that simply having beliefs that some races are better than others and not acting upon it is equivalent to actually harming other human beings?

I know that it's not much of a leap from simply being a racist, to being a violent racist.

[RickD]

Whoaaaaaa.....slow down guys....let's stay on topic....y'alls views on racism withstanding if you look at who did what and all Cobb went into the stands to beat up hecklers.....hello! That to me is a bad guy.....

[BOOMhauer8782]

How bout Milton Bradley playing the "Poor me" card all the time and then throwing shi7 at fans! (To be honest though, I'd throw **** at Dodger fans too if I were there!)

[CatKnight]

Hm. Some people here are making a fairly common mistake. You cannot judge a person who lived too far in the past by modern standards.

Ty Cobb was the bad boy of his era. No question. However, as much as we may revile what he did during his time ... it was common. Racism - VIOLENT racism was rampant in baseball and everywhere during his time period. Players routinely jumped into the stands after fans. He was a foul mouthed _____, but they were all foul mouthed _____s. Remember in 1912 the Tigers went on strike because Ban Johnson suspended him - certainly they supported his actions.

Some people seem inclined to forgive, or at least mitigate, Bonds' alleged steroid abuse because "everyone did it." I don't buy that argument, but if you're going to use it, then the same applies to Cobb.

So now that we agree both are bad boys, we have to look at who did more harm to baseball.

Cobb spiked players (another common occurence during this time period), and probably didn't do some players' careers any favors. Yep. Bad guy.

Bonds cheated. Bonds cheated badly. And in so doing he added a well deserved * to baseball's most cherished record.

Baseball continued just fine after Cobb retired. It won't be til A-Rod or someone else knocks the son of a _____ out of the history books that baseball will recover from Bonds.

He's the worst bad boy.

[dps]

Hm. Some people here are making a fairly common mistake. You cannot judge a person who lived too far in the past by modern standards.
<snip>
Cobb spiked players (another common occurence during this time period), and probably didn't do some players' careers any favors. Yep. Bad guy.

IMO, this lets Cobb off a bit too lightly. A lot of the on-field brutality that Cobb not only engaged in but seemed to enjoy was more typical of the 1890's than of Cobb's time.

[dps]

I know why people are voting for Barry. It's fresh, and a lot of people have a deep personal hatred of him for whatever reason. But I think if anybody actually just takes a couple minutes to actually consider the two and understand the aspects of why each person is reviled, the only logical conclusion is that Ty Cobb was a worse person.

Do you also think that Cobb was worse than Hal Chase, and if so, why?

[ohms_law]

I also don't think that Barry Bonds has hurt baseball must, if at all.

[HoustonGM]

Hm. Some people here are making a fairly common mistake. You cannot judge a person who lived too far in the past by modern standards.

Ty Cobb was the bad boy of his era. No question. However, as much as we may revile what he did during his time ... it was common. Racism - VIOLENT racism was rampant in baseball and everywhere during his time period. Players routinely jumped into the stands after fans. He was a foul mouthed _____, but they were all foul mouthed _____s. Remember in 1912 the Tigers went on strike because Ban Johnson suspended him - certainly they supported his actions.

Some people seem inclined to forgive, or at least mitigate, Bonds' alleged steroid abuse because "everyone did it." I don't buy that argument, but if you're going to use it, then the same applies to Cobb.

So now that we agree both are bad boys, we have to look at who did more harm to baseball.

Cobb spiked players (another common occurence during this time period), and probably didn't do some players' careers any favors. Yep. Bad guy.

Bonds cheated. Bonds cheated badly. And in so doing he added a well deserved * to baseball's most cherished record.

Baseball continued just fine after Cobb retired. It won't be til A-Rod or someone else knocks the son of a _____ out of the history books that baseball will recover from Bonds.

He's the worst bad boy.

They're both products of their time, yes, but that doesn't mean that we can't compare their actions. Cobb being a violent racist, while yes, it was common, is still worse than being a steroid user, yes, while it was common. What baseball has to recover from is not Bonds fault. Bonds simply did what many other players did, and what Bud Selig and Major League Baseball let go on.

Again, the question was, "Who was the worst all-around bad person?" If it was rephrased to directly be about baseball and only baseball, than Bonds has a case, sure, but it's not. It's about who was the worst all-around person, and that's not Barry Bonds.

Do you also think that Cobb was worse than Hal Chase, and if so, why?

I don't know anything about Hal Chase, so I can't say, but I'll look into it when I get a chance, if you don't tell me a little about him before I get around to checking him out.

I also don't think that Barry Bonds has hurt baseball must, if at all.

Exactly. Has steroid use hurt baseball? Yes. Was Barry Bonds the catalyst of the steroid era? Far from it. The powers that let the steroid use go on knowingly while reaping the financial benefits of the increased offense are the ones that hurt baseball.

[ohms_law]

To be honest, I'm not sure that the whole steroid scandal has actually hurt baseball at all. At least not in any tangible way. Sure, peoples opinions are strongly against it, but their still fans. robinhoodnik is a great example. He's obviously adamantly oposed to any sort of drug use, but he's still a fan aparently.