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Thread: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

  1. #16
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Who else... actually, including the Yankees in this. Remember, half (half? a portion, for sure) of A-rod's contract was still being paid by Texas. What teams can deal with paying a single player $30+ million per season without making compromises elsewhere?
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  2. #17
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Quote Originally Posted by ohms_law View Post
    Absolutely. But the point that you guys were arguing aginst was:


    There are simply different reasons that each does create problems. But, the fact remains, either player will create issues for the team that their on. The Yankees can afford to deal with A-Rods value issues, but I'm really not sure anyone else can.
    mets? dodgers? Giants?
    Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are .

  3. #18
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    We as fans don't know exactly how much money each owner has and would be willing to spend, really. Outside the Yankees, I can see the Angels, Dodgers, Red Sox, and Mets as definitely being able to handle it. The Giants are a possibility, as well, and so are the Cubs, depending on their new owner, but since that won't be settled until late in the offseason, they're likely out of contention for A-Rod if he does opt out.

  4. #19
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    I doubt it. Baseball Between the Numbers has an entire chapter devoted to this, and they make some really good points there. If he does opt-out, I'd go so far to bet that A-Rod (or rather, Boras for A-Rod) may be the first player ever to truly price himself out of the market. He could still be a free agent come April...
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  5. #20
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    If he does opt out and nobody signs him, I have a hard time believing that the Yankees won't go back on their "If he opts out, we opt out" mantra.

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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    If he does opt out and nobody signs him, I have a hard time believing that the Yankees won't go back on their "If he opts out, we opt out" mantra.
    at that point I'd offer him 20 million if it came to that...
    Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are .

  7. #22
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Also, if he does opt out, I'm sure somebody will sign him. If he could get a contract with an average annual value of $25 million seven years ago from a mid-market team like Texas, I'm sure he can get an extra $5 million a year from a large market team now.

  8. #23
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    We'll see. That's what Scott Boras is betting on, but the owners and GM's of the league learn from the past. For one thing, Texas was excoriated league wide for signing him to that contract. More importantly though, it was a great example of exactly what I'm talking about here. Signing A-Rod hurt Texas pretty bad, which is why they ended up trading him away.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  9. #24
    FRENCHREDSOX Guest

    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Quote Originally Posted by Wassit3 View Post
    It's a simple question with a complicated answer.

    If you had to choose between signing 32-year-old Alex Rodriguez or 43-year-old Barry Bonds to a free-agent contract, whom would you pick?

    A-Rod, right? He's in his prime. He's coming off a season for the ages. And he's about to become the first three-time MVP since, well, Bonds. I mean, what's there to debate?

    But if Rodriguez opts out of the last three years of his 10-year, $252 million contract (and agent Scott Boras has said he favors his client terminating his current deal with the New York Yankees), you know what's going to happen next. Boras, the master manipulator, is going to try to turn this into a bidding war. Opening bid: likely $30 million per, which is more than the entire Tampa Bay Devil Rays' payroll ($24 million) and about the same as the Florida Marlins' payroll ($30.5 million).

    Barry Bonds
    Bonds

    Left Field
    San Francisco Giants

    Profile
    2007 Season Stats GM HR RBI R OBP AVG
    126 28 66 75 .480 .276

    Bonds is not going to get $30 million. He might be lucky to get $3 million base salary, plus incentives. Maybe less.

    "Why would you pay him $9 million, 8, 7, 6 or 5?" a major league scout said. "If you're the Oakland A's, offer him a base of $2 million, and if he gets 500 at-bats, then he'll get his [incentive] numbers."

    Two or three mil is respectable money, but for Bonds and his considerable ego, it's going to be an insult. It shouldn't be. He's a one-dimensional player who got paid an eye-popping $15.8 million by the San Francisco Giants to put butts in the seats during his joyless chase of Henry Aaron's home run record. He got the record, the Giants got their sellouts, and then Giants owner Peter Magowan, citing irreconcilable differences with Bonds, got his divorce.

    So Bonds is a free agent. Let's say he sucks it up and agrees to sign a one-year deal, with incentives, worth (and we're being generous here) $5 million-$6 million.

    Meanwhile, A-Rod decides to opt out, the Yankees take a pass on an extension and Boras does what he does best: create demand -- in this case, for a player who wants an unprecedented $30 million per year.

    Who would you sign?

    Alex Rodriguez
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    2007 Season Stats GM HR RBI R OBP AVG
    158 54 156 143 .422 .314

    "Wow, that's a good question," the scout said.

    Only a limited number of teams will be interested in each player. In Bonds' case, it will be because he's old, almost always hurt, a prima donna and the only career home run leader we know who has testified in front of a federal grand jury about steroid use. In A-Rod's case, it will be because he's really, really expensive.

    The market for Bonds shrinks by 16 teams because chances are no National League team needs a weak-throwing statue in left field. Let's face it, Bonds runs like he has a bullet in his thigh.

    "He'd be better served in the other league," an NL general manager said. "It's awful hard to line up 120, 130 games in left field at this point in his career."

    If no NL team is interested, that means designated-hitter duty in the American League. The AL is the Statue of Liberty of baseball ("Give me your tired, your poor, your crippled sluggers ..."). Or, as the NL general manager said, "Sammy Sosa didn't play [in 2006]. He was the worst player in the American League during the second half of the 2005 season. But if the Texas Rangers can give Sosa a job, then certainly I would think somebody would give Bonds a job."

    Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but you get the point. Sosa, after a year off, returned in 2007 to hit a very respectable 21 homers and 92 RBIs as a DH. So some AL team, looking for a bargain, is going to offer Bonds a contract.

    Bonds might prefer the Los Angeles Angels, but it would be a stunner if image-conscious owner Arte Moreno let Bonds within a Rally Monkey of his franchise. The Seattle Mariners? I can't see Ichiro Suzuki or the team's conservative ownership signing off on that one. The Yankees? Sure, they need to get older.

    No, the Athletics are the logical choice. They're on Bonds' favorite coast. They're just across the bay. They're familiar with these kind of flyer deals (Frank Thomas, Mike Piazza, etc.) It all makes sense.

    A few teams from both leagues will kick A-Rod's tires. Moreno and the Angels are a possibility, as are the revenue-rich Boston Red Sox (second-highest payroll in the big leagues, trailing only the Yankees), the New York Mets and the Los Angeles Dodgers. The Chicago Cubs' Lou Piniella would love to be reunited with Rodriguez, but the team's impending sale complicates matters. And Chicago White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf has been known to pay top dollar to the game's top talent (remember Michael Jordan?).

    Of course, if it were based purely on projected salaries, Bonds is the better buy. Bonds hit 28 home runs, drove in 66 runs, had 132 walks, batted .276, had a .480 on-base percentage and had a .565 slugging percentage in 126 games and 340 at-bats. Lots of numbers, but the bottom line, said the NL GM, is this: "Quality left-handed bats are still very hard to come by."

    A-Rod nearly doubled Bonds' 2007 home run total (54), more than doubled his RBIs (156), had an 80-point advantage in slugging percentage, hit 38 points higher in average and had 243 more at-bats. It isn't close ... until you factor in the money.

    If you go from a straight mathematical analysis, A-Rod is going to make about $30 [million], Bonds about $5 or 6 [million]. Will A-Rod's stats be five times higher than Bonds'? Probably not.

    --MLB Scout

    "If you go from a straight mathematical analysis," the scout said, "A-Rod is going to make about $30 [million], Bonds about $5 or 6 [million]. Will A-Rod's stats be five times higher than Bonds'? Probably not."

    The Chicago Tribune's Phil Rogers [who also contributes to ESPN.com] crunched more numbers. The payroll rankings of the past five World Series champions: 11, 13, 2, 25 and 15. The payroll rankings of this year's final four playoff teams: 2, 23, 25, 26. Average number of wins during the three years before A-Rod signed with the Rangers: 85. Average number of wins during his three years there: 72. Average number of wins in the four years prior to and then during A-Rod's Yankees tenure: no difference, 97.

    So, you've got to choose Bonds, right? He's the new car equivalent of 0 percent financing. A-Rod is simply too expensive.

    Sorry, I'd rather take my chances with Rodriguez and that K2-sized contract than Bonds and his lineup of question marks. Sure, Bonds will come relatively cheap, but do you really want him in your clubhouse?

    Remember when Bonds was within a couple of home runs of Aaron's record? Remember Giants manager Bruce Bochy's pained expression whenever anyone asked if Bonds would be in the lineup the next day? Bonds essentially dictated to Bochy when he'd play and when he wouldn't.

    Bonds is old. His body continues to break down. In the past four seasons, he's played in more than 130 games just once. And Bonds' drama king reputation gives some GMs and owners the shakes.

    "He may have a hard time getting a job, he really might," the general manager said.

    "He's such a distraction for everybody," the scout said. "He just walks around in his own miserable world. A-Rod is going to be a distraction, too, but I'd still take him, just because of the negative factors [of Bonds]."

    "[Bonds' 2007 numbers] were good, there's no question," said another MLB club front office executive who specializes in statistical analysis. "But with [Rodriguez], at least you know what you're getting. Right now, I'd be paying the money to [Rodriguez]. Because you don't know what the price would be on the headaches, the negatives of Bonds."

    The steroid cloud still appears on Bonds' Doppler radar. He also would be making the switch from NL pitching to AL pitching. And, as usual, Bonds would be about Bonds, and those 65 hits he needs to reach the 3,000-hit mark. Neither choice -- Bonds at Wal-Mart prices, A-Rod at $30 mil -- is ideal. In fact, I wouldn't touch Bonds with a 10-foot checkbook.

    But one owner is going to be intrigued by Bonds, and another owner is going to be swayed by Boras. And one, if not both, are going to regret it.

    Gene Wojciechowski is the senior national columnist for ESPN.com. You can contact him at gene.wojciechowski@espn3.com. He co-authored Jerome Bettis' autobiography, "The Bus: My Life In and Out of a Helmet," which is available now.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/colum...7&sportCat=mlb
    Neither

  10. #25
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Quote Originally Posted by ohms_law View Post
    We'll see. That's what Scott Boras is betting on, but the owners and GM's of the league learn from the past. For one thing, Texas was excoriated league wide for signing him to that contract. More importantly though, it was a great example of exactly what I'm talking about here. Signing A-Rod hurt Texas pretty bad, which is why they ended up trading him away.
    dont they still subsidize his salary???
    Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are .

  11. #26
    FRENCHREDSOX Guest

    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Quote Originally Posted by Wassit3 View Post
    dont they still subsidize his salary???
    22 mill on the current deal

  12. #27
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Quote Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX View Post
    22 mill on the current deal
    so not only were they smart enough to sign him for 250 mill,they were even smarter to pay for him and not have his services at the same time...
    Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are .

  13. #28
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    It was the only way to trade him.

  14. #29
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    Exactly, because no one wanted his $22 million/year contract. Not even the Yankees.

    The Rangers were at least able to get half of the albatross off of their neck after 2003. It helped some, but you can believe that they'll be one of the happiest teams in MLB if A-Rod exercises his option and goes free agent.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  15. #30
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    Re: A-Rod or Bonds: It's not as clear-cut as you think

    I think AR will get his $30M, and I think he would look great playing 3B in Dodger Blue. Even playing SS if that's what it takes to get him to Dodger Stadium. The thing that gives me heartburn, and will likely be the deal-killer, is the ten years. Boras has even been quoted throwing around twelve years, though even he probably thinks that's too much. That won't stop him from demanding it though. He ask for 12, "settle" for 10, and then pronounce to the world that he and ARod are great humanitarians for doing so.

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