A win clinches you a spot in the playoffs...

[HoustonGM]

You're tied entering the bottom of the ninth inning. You have the greatest closer of all time in the bullpen, who last pitched three days ago. You bring in some old minor league pitcher, and he gets out. Bottom of the 10th inning. You're still tied. You bring in some rookie who's struggled with injuries and has fringy stuff. He gives up the game winning home run.

You still did not touch the best closer in all of baseball.

How do managers not see the worth of using their best reliever at the most crucial times? This is why I can't give Joe Torre any consideration for manager of the year. He sucks at managing a bullpen.

[Red Sox Fan 734]

Yes, exactly. If I was an MLB manager i would bring in my closer in the most crucial spot in the game, not in the 9th inning. If that's in the 7th then in comes my closer.(I do this in mogul)

[HoustonGM]

I mean, I could understand it if you have a good bullpen, but...Jose Veras? Jeff Karstens?

Really? In a tie game? Bottom 9th, and then extras? Over Mariano freaking Rivera? In a game that will clinch you a playoff spot?

[RickD]

No excuses....bad choice.

[skudplayr]

a lot of closers struggle in non save situations..not saying that Rivera does or using it as an excuse for Torre's decision..but it certainly can be a factor

[HoustonGM]

If you're a good pitcher, the amount your team is winning or losing by is irrelevent. Yeah, there's the guys like Bob Wickman who get mad when they're brought in in non-save situations, but this doesn't mean they perform worse. I've seen nothing factual to indicate the notion that a lot of closers struggle in non-save situations.

I think that a lot of that is that closers aren't really used outside of save situations, and a screw up in a non-save situation sticks in the minds of fans (and managers) more than a blown save. A young closer blows a game that wasn't a save situation? He gets branded with the "can't pitch except in save situations" label, and it's hard to get rid of. If you're a good pitcher, the score of the game is irrelevent.

And even if Rivera struggles in non-save situations, there's no way that a struggling Rivera isn't better than Jose Veras and Jeff Karstens.

[robinhoodnik]

I've seen nothing factual to indicate the notion that a lot of closers struggle in non-save situations.

Eric Gagne' ?
It can take a person up to six months to adjust to a new job or workplace.

[HoustonGM]

There's no evidence that the reason he's struggling is because he's no longer in save situations.

He's still striking out batters. His walk rate's a bit higher than it should be. His struggles actually started in Texas in July, after posting an ERA of 1.50 from April through June, it was 4.50 in July. The reason is explained in his batting average on balls in play, it went from .219 in June to .313 in July, and an outrageously unsustainable .515 in August, and now its back to .313 in September.

16 innings isn't enough to make any accurate judgment on.

[WATERY]

If you're a good pitcher, the amount your team is winning or losing by is irrelevent. Yeah, there's the guys like Bob Wickman who get mad when they're brought in in non-save situations, but this doesn't mean they perform worse. I've seen nothing factual to indicate the notion that a lot of closers struggle in non-save situations.

I think that a lot of that is that closers aren't really used outside of save situations, and a screw up in a non-save situation sticks in the minds of fans (and managers) more than a blown save. A young closer blows a game that wasn't a save situation? He gets branded with the "can't pitch except in save situations" label, and it's hard to get rid of. If you're a good pitcher, the score of the game is irrelevent.

And even if Rivera struggles in non-save situations, there's no way that a struggling Rivera isn't better than Jose Veras and Jeff Karstens.

I have seen Rivera stuggle in non save situations and it isn't pretty.

You would think that the situation wouldn't matter but it does. It's just a totally different mindset. However, the situation does matter, no matter how much HGM wants it to not matter because then they're would be someone that exists that can't be explained by sabrmetrics.

[Reade]

Dempster is another that struggles when its not a save opportunity.

[beerchaser]

I have seen Rivera stuggle in non save situations and it isn't pretty.

You would think that the situation wouldn't matter but it does. It's just a totally different mindset. However, the situation does matter, no matter how much HGM wants it to not matter because then they're would be someone that exists that can't be explained by sabrmetrics.

In my one and only visit to Yankee Stadium, I saw this happen too and no it was not pretty. Mo Rivera came in to pitch the 10th inning in a 3-3 game, after the Yankees had tied the game in the 9th, and got his *** kicked. I'm not saying this happens most of the time mind you, only that it can and does happen.

[HoustonGM]

I have seen Rivera stuggle in non save situations and it isn't pretty.

I've seen him struggle in save situations, and it isn't pretty.

You would think that the situation wouldn't matter but it does. It's just a totally different mindset. However, the situation does matter, no matter how much HGM wants it to not matter because then they're would be someone that exists that can't be explained by sabrmetrics.

Aren't closers supposedly given their role for their mental fortitude, and how they're able to deal with pressure so well? If that's the case, shouldn't these guys be able to handle even higher pressure situations better than some minor league retreats? Rivera is their best reliever. He doesn't suddenly turn into Jose Lima because the game is tied.

Dempster is another that struggles when its not a save opportunity.

What are we basing this on? Some memories of him doing bad in a non-save opportunity?

Does anybody have numbers of how closers do in non-save situations vs. how they do in save situations? I'd really like to see them. I've looked but couldn't find any.

Also, Dempster doesn't exactly shut anyone down in save situations, either.

In my one and only visit to Yankee Stadium, I saw this happen too and no it was not pretty. Mo Rivera came in to pitch the 10th inning in a 3-3 game, after the Yankees had tied the game in the 9th, and got his *** kicked. I'm not saying this happens most of the time mind you, only that it can and does happen.

Yes, and Rivera blowing a save opportunity can and does happen, as well. 58 times.

Rivera has alllowed a .644 OPS in tie games (sample size of 635 batters). That's the best data I could find. I'd sure as heck would like a pitcher on the mound that makes opposing hitters hit like Julio Lugo.

I don't care what the situation is. Who would you rather have on the mound in a tie game in the game that can clinch you a playoff spot - Jeff Karstens or Mariano Rivera?

Heck, don't want to use Rivera? Why not your other greatreliever, Joba Chamberlain? He had a day of rest. You don't even go to your third best reliever, Luis Vizcaino? He also had a day of rest. There's no excuse for turning to Jose Veras and Jeff Karstens when an important game is on the line.

[HoustonGM]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7134422 - This article, unfortunately written by the same idiot that lumped Barry Bonds in with his candidates for least valuable players, was written a month ago, and looks at the top 10 closers (based on saves) this year, and how they performed in save vs. non-save situations (I don't know where those split numbers are, I'd really like to see them for every pitcher), and it's a push.

[beerchaser]

Heck, don't want to use Rivera? Why not your other greatreliever, Joba Chamberlain? He had a day of rest. You don't even go to your third best reliever, Luis Vizcaino? He also had a day of rest. There's no excuse for turning to Jose Veras and Jeff Karstens when an important game is on the line.

No argument there, I'm good with it.

[JayC]

Well, one thing is it really wasn't a crucial game. The fact that they could have "clinched a playoff spot" with a win makes it seem bigger than it is; they clinch a playoff spot with their next win or Detroit's next loss.

In fact, Brian Cashman said before the game that Clemens could have started, and would have if it had been "a must-win situation."

Also, with a tie game in the bottom of the ninth you know that in order to win you will need at least two innings of relief, not one. Somewhere over those two-plus innings will come "the most crucial time." Maybe the plan was to use Rivera once there was a base runner... or for that matter, maybe Rivera really wasn't available. Who knows what conversations might have gone on internally?

Bottom line is with no days off until the end of the season, this was the least important game left. Bring Rivera in there, and maybe he pitches a shutout ninth. Then the game goes 13 innings (do you keep Rivera in for the 10th?), and the team still loses... (maybe when Karstens finally takes over in the bottom of the 13th ). Now the next game is "more crucial" than this one was. And the best closer in history isn't available...

The overriding goal at this point is to make the playoffs. Overriding, for example, clinching as soon as possible.