Wally Joyner

[DontTreadOnMe]

This reinforces my comment in another threat about the hypocrisy. Steroids are used to help people with injuries, as well as significant swelling that can occur with diseases like arthritus, etc. So athletes can't take steroids, because it will help their numbers. Ok, when they're sick, no medicines either. Make em miss however many games it would take their bodies to "naturally" heal or kill the disease. Right???? After all, wonder what their career numbers would be if they couldn't take any drugs. Meanwhile the rest of us use those same drugs all the time. It's just so arbitrary to single out ONE drug or medical procedure and NOT scream about the others. Again, medical science is gonna change again, probably in your lifetimes. We gonna just stop playing baseball cause the new advances aren't "fair".

When the medicine artificially grows muscle then I would say get rid of that too.

No medicine Im aware does that other than steroids.

[OldFatGuy]

I've been given a steroid inhalor for my asthma so I am no longer allowed to participate in baseball Mogul 2008..... Too bad we did not have a BM 91.....It was a fun game while it lasted.

LOL, yeah asthma is another, because it fights the swelling in the bronchial tubes causing the restricted air flow. No more BM for you ! ! !

Or, you could play and asterik all your records.

[OldFatGuy]

When the medicine artificially grows muscle then I would say get rid of that too.

No medicine Im aware does that other than steroids.

Well I here ya, but if growing muscle mass is beneficial to hitting a baseball, why isn't every scout in the majors attending every WWE event???? Those guys must be the best hitters ever.

[RickD]

LOL, yeah asthma is another, because it fights the swelling in the bronchial tubes causing the restricted air flow. No more BM for you ! ! !

Or, you could play and asterik all your records.

Can I play with an asterik? Will Istill be treated the same....no one will appove of my records....oh take me back to the good old days of 1991 when I could play with an inhalor!

[DontTreadOnMe]

Well I here ya, but if growing muscle mass is beneficial to hitting a baseball, why isn't every scout in the majors attending every WWE event???? Those guys must be the best hitters ever.

Of course you have to have the ability to have other baseball skills but when you dont have to work as hard to get that strength as the other guy then something must be done.
While you continue to hit warning track outs, the other guy with the same talents as you gets homeruns because he has used an artificial drug to grow muscles.

Im not saying steroid users arent great baseball players, I saying that have a tremendous unfair advantage when they use steroids.


Be it in Speed, muscle growth, recovery time.

Ben Johnson was a tremendous runner, but he still cheated in the worst possible way an athlete can cheat IMO.

[OldFatGuy]

Well, I agree with you on most points. Ben Johnson cheated. Steroids may be an advantage to baseball players, certainly speed wise. But I'm just not as sure that a gifted baseball player with the ability to hit like Barry Bonds actually benefits from steroid use and if so how much. I don't think the scientific data is absolutely convincing. Look at Jose Canseco. I would argue he performed WORSE after years of steroid use, and the last I heard he couldn't even cut it in the independent leagues. His first few years in professional baseball were successful.

And finally, as I've stated before, I'm just not convinced Barry is guilty. When it's proven, even though I'm not sold on the benefits of steroids, I will join in the uproar against Barry and his stats because it was against the rules, even if I think those rules are a bit hypocritical. The evidence looks fishy, but I need proof to deny a man his livelihood or his family the pride of his accomplishments. I recently was in court myself. I ran a stop light. It was totally unintentional, so I went to court to plead my case. It did no good, but the officer was there and provided proof of my guilt. I like the system of innocent until proven guilty, and I like it in the law as well as in life because I have seen many, many, many times that things just aren't what they seem sometimes. Sometimes something can look like a slam dunk and you find different facts later that change everything. And I do admire your demand to stick to the rules. I admire that in the law as well as life too. We'll just have to disagree on what "proof" is.

[HoustonGM]

Well, I agree with you on most points. Ben Johnson cheated. Steroids may be an advantage to baseball players, certainly speed wise. But I'm just not as sure that a gifted baseball player with the ability to hit like Barry Bonds actually benefits from steroid use and if so how much. I don't think the scientific data is absolutely convincing. Look at Jose Canseco. I would argue he performed WORSE after years of steroid use, and the last I heard he couldn't even cut it in the independent leagues. His first few years in professional baseball were successful.

Yep. I'll quote this, again, from this article which everybody involved in any Bonds discussions owes it to themselves to read:

Further, heavy steroid usage negatively impacts player longevity. Those noted for their juicing have had their bodies break down and have been out of the game by their late 30s: Mark McGwire retired at 37, Ken Caminiti made it to 38, Jose Canseco was gone at 36. The only exception was Rafael Palmeiro, who played until 41, and here Bonds is .295/.512/.589 with 17 HR and will be 43 this month.

The simple fact that Bonds is still in the game raking despite the destructive properties of anabolic substances bears witness to the amazing biological machine that is home to the shade of Barry Bonds.

It's probably safe to say PED usage has goosed Bonds’ totals, but absent it we cannot say for certain that he might not be creeping up on Aaron; don’t forget, how many pitchers got him out because of the juice? A healthy, productive Bonds at 43 (with or without steroids) would be expected to be closing in on "The Hammer."

[dps]

Good thing you never got to write the laws in the criminal justice system.

This is what he witnessed. Eye Witness testimony is evidence.

I said its circumstancial. But it is still evidence.

Evidence to what steroids do to the Stats of Players. They increase them.

Evidence is Evidence.

No court that I'm aware of would accept testimony from Joyner on the physical effects of steroids. Evidence of the physical affect of steroids would be entered as expert testimony from a medical doctor, not as eyewitness testimony from someone who saw a particular individual or individuals take steroids.

Unless Joyner is a doctor, which would be news to me.

[dps]

Yep. I'll quote this, again, from this article which everybody involved in any Bonds discussions owes it to themselves to read:

Quote:
Further, heavy steroid usage negatively impacts player longevity. Those noted for their juicing have had their bodies break down and have been out of the game by their late 30s: Mark McGwire retired at 37, Ken Caminiti made it to 38, Jose Canseco was gone at 36. The only exception was Rafael Palmeiro, who played until 41, and here Bonds is .295/.512/.589 with 17 HR and will be 43 this month.

I find this pretty unconvincing; historically, most players have had their bodies break down on them and have been out of the game in their early-to-mid 30's. DiMaggio and Mantle were both done at 36; Foxx, Sandberg, and Yount at 37.

[Wassit3]

I've been given a steroid inhalor for my asthma so I am no longer allowed to participate in baseball Mogul 2008..... Too bad we did not have a BM 91.....It was a fun game while it lasted.

[HoustonGM]

I find this pretty unconvincing; historically, most players have had their bodies break down on them and have been out of the game in their early-to-mid 30's. DiMaggio and Mantle were both done at 36; Foxx, Sandberg, and Yount at 37.

It's not hard evidence, but steroids do have a negative effect on the body, so it's not unreasonable to believe that steroids lessen longetivity.

[robinhoodnik]

Also, pointing out that "Joyner knew steroids would help his stats" is not evidence of how steroids affect stats.

You wanna see evidence? Get the latest SI. There's a nice little piece on Bonds. Numbers and everything. Even longest Hr's for the season, for every season he 's played. Not only did he hit more, he began hitting them an extra 40 or 50 feet every year when he got old.

[DontTreadOnMe]

No court that I'm aware of would accept testimony from Joyner on the physical effects of steroids. Evidence of the physical affect of steroids would be entered as expert testimony from a medical doctor, not as eyewitness testimony from someone who saw a particular individual or individuals take steroids.

Unless Joyner is a doctor, which would be news to me.

Every court I know of will accept testimony of people envolved in the case.

So if a worker in a company (who is not a doctor) eye witnessed at his plant the affects of the "alleged" chemical contamination at his work place, you are telling me the Judge would not let the jury hear his testimony because he is not a doctor.

Im sorry that is just BS.Would they need to add on to that evidence with evidence from a doctore, probably in order to win the case.

But still the eye witness testimony from the worker is STILL EVIDENCE!

[varybarry]

Can I play with an asterik? Will Istill be treated the same....no one will appove of my records....oh take me back to the good old days of 1991 when I could play with an inhalor!

I think the asterisk sounds like the best idea. We can prove that the inhaler increased Rick D's stats.

[HoustonGM]

Every court I know of will accept testimony of people envolved in the case.

So if a worker in a company (who is not a doctor) eye witnessed at his plant the affects of the "alleged" chemical contamination at his work place, you are telling me the Judge would not let the jury hear his testimony because he is not a doctor.

Im sorry that is just BS.Would they need to add on to that evidence with evidence from a doctore, probably in order to win the case.

But still the eye witness testimony from the worker is STILL EVIDENCE!

Except in this case he can say "I began to feel sick after the chemicals contaminated the work place." or something similar.

Wally Joyner can't and didn't say "Steroids improved my home run numbers, made me steal more bases, etc." or anything. "Steroids would make me better" is not evidence of anything.

You wanna see evidence? Get the latest SI. There's a nioce little piece on Bonds. Numbers and everything. Even longest Hr's for the season, for every season he 's played. Not only did he hit more, he began hiting them an extra 40 or 50 feet every year when he got old.

I'll have to see. But, keep in mind, that sample size of one player is not definitive.