Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson

[ohms_law]

Not if you consider position and. defense speed,e tc... Dave Winfeild would be a good comparable.

True. I missed (or rather, overlooked) Winfield's name on there somehow. I know what's coming next though, but the thing is Winfield didn't get in to the hall because of his bat. He had 12 All Star appearances, 7 Gold Gloves, 6 Silver Sluggers, the Babe Ruth award, Roberto Clemente award, and the Brtanch Ricky award. The writer's/broadcaster's loved the guy (I remember him distinctly being made into a media darling). He's a marginal HOF'er at best (I personally wouldn't place him with Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, and company) but... since he is in, why not Dawson?
*shrug*

[dolfanar]

Oh come on now... Dave Winfield is a marginal HOF player now?

[ohms_law]

Take a look at him: Dave Winfield
Outside of the glam and glitz of the MLB spotlight, his performances weren't as spectacular as they were always made out to be. I remember vividly, watching Winfield. At the time, it was easy enough to fall for the broadcaster's lines about how great he was, and he was a good player. I wouldn't compare him to most other Hall Of Fame hitter's though. Micky Mantle's stats can stand up to any scrutiny, I'm not so sure that Winfield's stats can. I don't begrudge him being in the hall really, but there are points against him as well (once you get beyond emotional ties).

I just did a query on the Lahman database as well. There were plenty of players that played alongside Dawson who had better (some much better) hitting. From 1978-1984, The top 10 (minimum 150 AB) sorted by slugging are:

nameFirst		nameLast		yearID		Avg		OBP		SLG
George		Brett		1980		0.39		0.45		0.66
Mike		Schmidt		1981		0.32		0.44		0.64
Fred		Lynn		1979		0.33		0.42		0.64
Mike		Schmidt		1980		0.29		0.38		0.62
Champ		Summers		1979		0.31		0.41		0.61
Dave		Kingman		1979		0.29		0.34		0.61
John		Lowenstein	1982		0.32		0.41		0.60
Reggie		Jackson		1980		0.30		0.40		0.60
Jim		Rice		1979		0.32		0.38		0.60
Jim		Spencer		1979		0.29		0.37		0.59

[ohms_law]

FYI: Dawson's 1981 season is #20 on that list. 1983 is #34. Winfield is right up there with him (1982 = #18 & 1979 = 19). George Brett appears 5 times (every season between 1979-1983), Dawson 4 (80-83), Winfield 3 (79, 82-83), Schmidt 3 times (80-82).

[dolfanar]

The only guy's on that list who consistently put up better numbers are HOF already... what's your point? I mean so now Dave Kingman (the very definition of a 1-dimensional player) was a better player than Dawson?

By that criteria Cal Ripken doesn't deserve to be in the hall either...

You're seriously reaching there bud... That you use 150AB as the minimum is friggin' laughable.

[dolfanar]

A more fair analysis would be 1977-1992, players with atleast 325 AB (with 215 being the cutoff for 1981 shortened season).

I mean HONESTLY... whouses 150 AB as a cutoff? Talk about selective!

[ohms_law]

Like I said, since Winfield is in...
Regarding Kingman, you said it yourself: At the time,

Yep. That was what you hoped your all star no-defense first-baseman put up. Nevermind your gold glove, base-stealing Right Felder...

This is how Bill James and company were able to break into the league and start working for the teams in the first place. There was wide acceptance that out's weren't necessarily anything to worry about. Advance the runners at any cost was the name of the game. As we see now, being willing to accept a walk instead of just swinging to desperately make contact is ultimately more productive. There's certainly still a place for sac hits, squeeze plays, stolen bases, and whatnot. Manager's have to know how to use those tactics correctly, is all.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kingman was necessarily better. All the players on the list above had better seasons than Dawson did, at the time that Dawson was playing though. It's an argument against his being so "dominant" during that era. Define dominance, because to me a dominant player ought to be on the top of that list multiple times, like George Brett is. Their single season records, but there only from the seasons 1979-1983 (5 seasons), when Dawson's hitting was at it's peak.

[ohms_law]

A more fair analysis would be 1977-1992, players with atleast 325 AB (with 215 being the cutoff for 1981 shortened season).

I mean HONESTLY... who uses 150 AB as a cutoff? Talk about selective!

Easy enough. The numbers that I picked were off the cuff, made in about 20 seconds. One minute.

[ohms_law]

That result set includes 2,863 players.
Top 50, in order of slugging percentage:

nameFirst	nameLast		yearID		Avg		OBP		SLG
George		Brett			1980		0.39		0.45		0.66
Mike		Schmidt			1981		0.32		0.44		0.64
Fred		Lynn			1979		0.33		0.42		0.64
Kevin		Mitchell		1989		0.29		0.39		0.64
George		Foster			1977		0.32		0.38		0.63
Mike		Schmidt			1980		0.29		0.38		0.62
Mark		McGwire			1987		0.29		0.37		0.62
Kal		Daniels			1987		0.33		0.43		0.62
Dave		Kingman			1979		0.29		0.34		0.61
George		Bell			1987		0.31		0.35		0.60
Jim		Rice			1978		0.31		0.37		0.60
Reggie		Jackson			1980		0.30		0.40		0.60
Jack		Clark			1987		0.29		0.46		0.60
Jim		Rice			1979		0.32		0.38		0.60
Greg		Luzinski		1977		0.31		0.39		0.59
Jim		Rice			1977		0.32		0.38		0.59
Danny		Tartabull		1991		0.32		0.40		0.59
Eric		Davis			1987		0.29		0.40		0.59
Cecil		Fielder			1990		0.28		0.38		0.59
Oscar		Gamble			1977		0.30		0.39		0.59
Wade		Boggs			1987		0.36		0.46		0.59
George		Brett			1985		0.33		0.44		0.59
Dave		Parker			1978		0.33		0.39		0.59
Darryl		Strawberry		1987		0.28		0.40		0.58
Mike		Easler			1980		0.34		0.40		0.58
Will		Clark			1987		0.31		0.37		0.58
Dale		Murphy			1987		0.30		0.42		0.58
Robin		Yount			1982		0.33		0.38		0.58
Pedro		Guerrero		1985		0.32		0.42		0.58
Rickey		Henderson		1990		0.33		0.44		0.58
Reggie		Smith			1977		0.31		0.43		0.58
Mike		Schmidt			1977		0.27		0.39		0.57
Don		Mattingly		1986		0.35		0.39		0.57
Sixto		Lezcano			1979		0.32		0.41		0.57
Mike		Greenwell		1987		0.33		0.39		0.57
Rod		Carew			1977		0.39		0.45		0.57
Dwight		Evans			1987		0.30		0.42		0.57
Jose		Canseco			1988		0.31		0.39		0.57
Andre		Dawson			1987		0.29		0.33		0.57
Don		Mattingly		1985		0.32		0.37		0.57
Willie		Stargell		1978		0.29		0.38		0.57
Cal		Ripken			1991		0.32		0.37		0.57
Paul		Molitor			1987		0.35		0.44		0.57
Barry		Bonds			1990		0.30		0.41		0.56
Mike		Schmidt			1979		0.25		0.39		0.56
Larry		Sheets			1987		0.32		0.36		0.56
George		Brett			1979		0.33		0.38		0.56
George		Brett			1983		0.31		0.38		0.56
Ben		Oglivie			1980		0.30		0.36		0.56
George		Foster			1979		0.30		0.39		0.56

Dawson's only on that list once. That kind of makes you're position worse, doesn't it?

I used 79-83 because those are Dawson's biggest hitting seasons. That seemed fair to me. This includes alot of seasons in the very late 80's and early 90's, so I'm not sure that it's actually as fair of a list, to Dawson.

Edit: ******, Word truncated the averages...

[dolfanar]

Like I said, since Winfield is in...
Regarding Kingman, you said it yourself: At the time,


This is how Bill James and company were able to break into the league and start working for the teams in the first place. There was wide acceptance that out's weren't necessarily anything to worry about. Advance the runners at any cost was the name of the game. As we see now, being willing to accept a walk instead of just swinging to desperately make contact is ultimately more productive. There's certainly still a place for sac hits, squeeze plays, stolen bases, and whatnot. Manager's have to know how to use those tactics correctly, is all.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kingman was necessarily better. All the players on the list above had better seasons than Dawson did, at the time that Dawson was playing though. It's an argument against his being so "dominant" during that era. Define dominance, because to me a dominant player ought to be on the top of that list multiple times, like George Brett is. Their single season records, but there only from the seasons 1979-1983 (5 seasons), when Dawson's hitting was at it's peak.

But they DIDN'T... you deliberatly set the bar SO low for AB, that part time players like John Friggin' Lowenstein made the list... And why 1979-1984? Arbitrary to say the least!

I mean there is a reason why a guy who goes 55/150 doesn't win the batting championship. Your criteria are so off that they're not useful in anywya of determining worth, not to mention that you ignore speed and defense entirely.

For fun

Dave Kingman compares to

Similar Batters
Greg Vaughn (869)
Frank Howard (863)
Rocky Colavito (848)
Boog Powell (847)
Roy Sievers (844)
Joe Adcock (834)
Norm Cash (833)
George Foster (827)
Willie Horton (824)
Jose Canseco (821)

I don't see any HOF on THAt list!


Again someone who didn't see Dawson or Winfield play, might make these arguments. Let me put it this way. If Dave Winfield is a marginal HOF player, then so is George Brett and Cal Ripken. Dawson would probably finish 4th in that foursome, but the differance between 1st and 4th isn't as much as you'd like to think... Those four players stack up line up very well with each other.

[dolfanar]

Dawson's only on that list once. That kind of makes you're position worse, doesn't it?

I used 79-83 because those are Dawson's biggest hitting seasons. That seemed fair to me. This includes alot of seasons in the very late 80's and early 90's, so I'm not sure that it's actually as fair of a list, to Dawson.

Edit: ******, Word truncated the averages...

I can live with my position being better or worse, as long as the criteria are logical.

Again doing a straight top 50 makes little sense. Some years are big hitting years, some aren't. A top 10, per season for the stretch of 15 years. would make more sense. As you can see from that list '77, '79, '87 are all over represented because they were big hitting years.

[ohms_law]

Well, I fixed the # of At Bats. I think the seasons were a better comparison though, so here's top 20, 78-84, 325 AB minimum:

nameFirst	nameLast	yearID	Avg	OBP	SLG
George		Brett		1980	0.39	0.45	0.66
Mike		Schmidt		1981	0.32	0.44	0.64
Fred		Lynn		1979	0.33	0.42	0.64
Mike		Schmidt		1980	0.29	0.38	0.62
Dave		Kingman		1979	0.29	0.34	0.61
Reggie		Jackson		1980	0.30	0.40	0.60
Jim		Rice		1979	0.32	0.38	0.60
Mike		Easler		1980	0.34	0.40	0.58
Robin		Yount		1982	0.33	0.38	0.58
Sixto		Lezcano		1979	0.32	0.41	0.57
Mike		Schmidt		1979	0.25	0.39	0.56
George		Brett		1979	0.33	0.38	0.56
Ben		Oglivie		1980	0.30	0.36	0.56
George		Brett		1983	0.31	0.38	0.56
George		Foster		1979	0.30	0.39	0.56
Dave		Winfield	1982	0.28	0.33	0.56
Dave		Winfield	1979	0.31	0.40	0.56
Andre		Dawson		1981	0.30	0.37	0.55
Bob		Horner		1979	0.31	0.35	0.55
Willie		Stargell	1979	0.28	0.35	0.55

I can't figure out why it's rounding the averages now though. Their not rounded on Access, but as soon as their copied to the clipboard they get rounded.

[ohms_law]

I can live with my position being better or worse, as long as the criteria are logical.

Again doing a straight top 50 makes little sense. Some years are big hitting years, some aren't. A top 10, per season for the stretch of 15 years. would make more sense. As you can see from that list '77, '79, '87 are all over represented because they were big hitting years.

Now you're talking OPS+.
Dawson Shows up three times on the OPS+ leaderboards:
1980 NL-OPS+ 136-(#6)
1981 NL-OPS+ 157-(#2)
1983 NL-OPS+ 141-(#5)

[dolfanar]

I can't figure out why it's rounding the averages now though. Their not rounded on Access, but as soon as their copied to the clipboard they get rounded.

Try pasting into note pad first.

[ohms_law]

I did, same thing. It's weird because it worked right the first time. I'm gonna try closing Access and reopening it, see if that makes a difference.