Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson

[robinhoodnik]

I don't agree with dominant in era either. The thing is, it seems to be the measuring stick being used nowadays.

• Harold Baines (1)
• Albert Belle (2)
• Dante Bichette (1)
• Bert Blyleven (10)
• Bobby Bonilla (1)
• Scott Brosius (1)
• Jay Buhner (1)
• Ken Caminiti (1)
• Jose Canseco (1)
• Dave Concepcion (14)
• Eric Davis (1)
• Andre Dawson (6)
• Tony Fernandez (1)
• Steve Garvey (15)
• Rich Gossage (8)
• Tony Gwynn (1)
• Orel Hershiser (2)
• Tommy John (13)
• Wally Joyner (1)
• Don Mattingly (7)
• Mark McGwire (1)
• Jack Morris (8)
• Dale Murphy (9)
• Paul O'Neill (1)
• Dave Parker (11)
• Jim Rice (13)
• Cal Ripken (1)
• Bret Saberhagen (1)
• Lee Smith (5)
• Alan Trammell (6)
• Devon White (1)
• Bobby Witt (1)

I'd say yes to Gossage, Smith, Ripken and Gwynn. Let the vets committee handle the questionables. The rest would need a ticket just like everyone else.

[robinhoodnik]

Besides, Boston is one of the few teams with an overall lifetime winning record. their 8444-7960 (0.515) since 1901!

But we're known for losing. lol

[ohms_law]

lol

Boston is a loosing franchise as much as the Islanders are...


Anyway, I tend to agree with your analysis. That's a nice list that you posted there. What exactly are the number's that you posted though? I like most of them as a rating, but I wonder where you pulled them from.

[robinhoodnik]

Those are the years on ballot numbers. I copied and pasted it from MLB.com. It's the most recent ballot.

[disposablehero]

some would say that having to go through 10+ votes means you arent a HoFer. i wouldnt, but some would

[HoustonGM]

There is a difference between all-time Dominant and dominant within any single players playing era, though. Dominant within his era what dolfanar and robinhoodnick (among others) are mainly speaking to, so I'm perfectly willing to oblige their argument. He was popular, and he was an above average player for sure. That needs to be backed up by better stats though, really, in order for enough support to build behind a guy to get him into the Hall. That is my primary argument against Dawson making it, but then as I acknowledged earlier, Dave Winfield is in so...
*shrug*

But thats the point. OPS+ compares a player to the other players. A player who is dominant in his era will have a high OPS+. OPS+ of 200 in 2002 is the same as an OPS+ of 200 in 1980.

[dolfanar]

• Devon White (1)
• Bobby Witt (1)
• Harold Baines (1)
• Dante Bichette (1)
• Bobby Bonilla (1)
• Scott Brosius (1)
• Jay Buhner (1)
• Ken Caminiti (1)
• Jose Canseco (1)
• Eric Davis (1)
• Tony Fernandez (1)
• Tony Gwynn (1)
• Wally Joyner (1)
• Mark McGwire (1)
• Paul O'Neill (1)
• Cal Ripken (1)
• Bret Saberhagen (1)
• Orel Hershiser (2)
• Albert Belle (2)
• Lee Smith (5)
• Andre Dawson (6)
• Alan Trammell (6)
• Don Mattingly (7)
• Rich Gossage (8)
• Jack Morris (8)
• Dale Murphy (9)
• Bert Blyleven (10)
• Dave Parker (11)
• Tommy John (13)
• Jim Rice (13)
• Dave Concepcion (14)
• Steve Garvey (15)

Wat I did was reorder the list from 1st years to 15th. Looking at the list this way (working back from Garvey).

Steve Garvey is a guy I'd consider a fringe HOF. If Orlando Cepeda is a HOF then an argument could be made for Garvey as well. Still, I'm always pretty cool to 1B unless they are real monsters at the plate. I'd say NO to Garvey.

Dave Concepcion is a soft hitting SS, which doesn't mean he should be automatically excluded from the hall. 5 GG, 9 time AS. Another HOF comparable would be Luis Aparicio, but Luis won more GG was just a half notch above Dave. NO to Dave.

Jim Rice to me is a HOF player. The biggest knock on him is that he didn't play a LONG time, but he idd enough, imo to warrant induction. YES to Rice.

Tommy John I already stated above I would vote for. YES to John.

Dave Parker was a pretty darn good ball player, but definitely not HOF worthy. NO to Parker.

YES to Bert (Again I stated before that I would).

Dale Murphy is just slightly behind Dawson in my book. Not as much longevity , but I didn't hold that against Rice, so YES to Murphy.

Jack Morris is real tough one. His ERA was nothing to crow about, but when it comes down to it what brings "Fame" more than winning? YES to Morris.

Rich Gossage is a tough one for me, if only because Lee Smith ISN'T in yet. Weird isn't it, but I'd only induct Gossage into a HOF that includes Lee Smith. NO to Gossage (for now!).

Don Mattingly is another classic case of a GREAT player with a short career. He is hurt also (again for me) by the position he played. I'm REALLY on the fence with Don. Gonna say NO, but only with great, GREAT regret.

Alan Trammell is a HOF in my book. Compared to the other players of his position, particularly during the era he played, he along with Ripken was a pioneer in transformation of SS from a no-hit position into one where offense could be expected. YES to ALan.

Needless to say YES to Dawson.

Lee Smith should ALREADY be in, IMO. YES to Smith.

Albert Belle had a GREAT, albeit short career. Without a doubt, a doimnant player in his short time, I would vote Belle in to the Hall.... just not this year. Like Rice I think he should wait a while. It's only his 2nd year... he has time.

Of the first year players, the ONLY one who jumps at me for inductionis Cal Ripken. TOny Gwynn should definitely get in... I just don't see him as a first ballot kinda guy. Next year definitely. I know he is getting in regardless mind you, so the point is moot. Big Mac is the other name that jumps out... a one-dimensional player, but WHAT A DIMENSION! The steroid thing hurts a bit. Maybe in a year or two.

So my picks:
Jim Rice
Tommy John
Bert Blyleven
Dale Murphy
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Andre Dawson
Lee Smith
Tony Gwynn
Cal Ripken

That would be my short-list. If I had to pair it down to 4 names, my ballot THIS year would look like this:

Andre Dawson
Lee Smith
Tony Gwynn
Cal Ripken

That would be my biggest hope for this years class. NEXT year I would still be keeping my fingers crossed for one or two of Jim Rice, Tommy John, Rich Gossage and *especially* Alan Trammell to make it in.

[HoustonGM]

I won't argue with those opinions, except for Gossage. Bruce Sutter is in, and is more comparable to Gossage than Smith. I'd say both Gossage and Smith should be in, but I see no reason why Sutter should go in before Gossage...Gossage'll definitely get in next year though.

Also, did you purposely skip McGwire?

[dolfanar]

Also, did you purposely skip McGwire?

Nope, I mention him. He's a 2nd/3rd year kinda guy to me.

[HoustonGM]

AH, overlooked that.

[dolfanar]

For fun I ran a query (With hated ACCESS!) to see who the top candidates for 2008 will be. All I can say is... LEAN YEAR!

Pitching
Chuck Finley
Andy Benes
Robb Nen
Todd Stottlemyre
Darryl Kile
Mike Morgan
Greg Swindell
Jose Rijo
Bobby Jones
Mark Wohlers
Dave Mlicki
Dennis Cook
Armando Reynoso
Mike Trombley
Hipolito Pichardo

Position Players
Tim Raines
Brady Anderson
Chuck Knoblauch
David Justice
Travis Fryman
Delino DeShields
Shawon Dunston
Rusty Greer
John Valentin
Randy Velarde
Luis Alicea
Dave Hollins
Darrin Fletcher
Darren Lewis
Lee Stevens
Henry Rodriguez

[HoustonGM]

Tim Raines better get in...

[dolfanar]

Tim Raines better get in...

I agree, but not before Hawk and Rickey Henderson

[HoustonGM]

Well, considering I'm against Dawson being in, I think Raines should go in first!

As for Henderson, well, Raines should go in first, because Raines should be in on the first ballot. Henderson should also be in on the first ballot, just so happens he decided to play until he was like 75.

[dolfanar]

Well, considering I'm against Dawson being in, I think Raines should go in first!

You rate Rock above Hawk? Wow... ok, I'm not even going to touch this one, as it's just going to start a long OBP argument agian.

Instead, here is the CLass of 2003 (HOF elligible in 2009)

Position Players
Rickey Henderson
Mark Grace
Jay Bell
Matt Williams
Ron Gant
Greg Vaughn
Mo Vaughn
Dean Palmer
Mike Bordick
Al Martin
Orlando Merced
Todd Hundley
Troy O'Leary
Kevin Young

Pitchers
David Cone
John Burkett
Jesse Orosco
Denny Neagle
Dan Plesac
Charles Nagy
Steve Avery
Rick Reed
Mike Williams
Joey Hamilton
Jason Bere
Dave Veres
Omar Daal
Mark Guthrie
Robert Person
Darren Holmes

David Cone is an interesting case.