Payroll and Wins

[beerchaser]

Trade Manny NOW for top talent, eat the rest of his contract.

Yes agreed now tell me to whom & what do we get back ???

Indeed, good question. I was on the Dodgers board the other day and some joker was claiming that the Dodgers should take Manny and Hansen in exchange for Furcal, Kent, Matt Kemp and one of our bullpen prospects. Needless to say that thread got locked up pretty quick. Kent's worth more to LA than anyone else at this point and Furcal, while overpaid, was probably their MVP in 2006. Kemp still can't hit a breaking ball yet but is considered untouchable right now. Theo Epstein didn't make himself any friends in LA by trying to ask for Kemp for David Wells. Frankly I was surprised SD gave up Kottaras for him.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Frankly I was surprised SD gave up Kottaras for him.

San Diego thought they needed an experienced pitcher going into post season (like your Dodgers with the Maddux pick up) &were scared that the Red Sox would send him to Dodgerland.

Also there is some debate if Kottaras will cut it at C,if he is "forced" to move to a corner his value suddenly plummets - his performance so far at AA since the trade seem to prove that the Red Sox for once got the better end of a deal with the Padres ( remember Meredith & Bard trades..)

But the lack of certainty of Kottaras's ability & the "Dodger" option basically forced the Padres to overpay - it porved a good move as Wells did help them out by getting them to post season but may be considered a short term risk

But as a red Sox fan the value will only be seen post 2007...

[beerchaser]

Well I don't keep up with the Pads farm system much so I don't know a whole lot about Kottaras but I thought I had heard that he was a pretty good prospect, maybe even MLB-ready in 07. I know that SD needed a pitcher and Wells fit the bill for them, but he was never really that close to becoming a Dodger. Epstein wanted one of our top 3-4 prospects (Kemp was his 1st choice) and that made the deal a non-starter for LA. Maddux OTOH was a great deal for us, I expect LA to resign him for one, maybe two more years.

BTW, in the Mogul game I'm playing right now (I'm playing my Raleigh team) I see that LA traded 75/84 rated Matt Kemp to Boston in June 2006. Boston just offered him to me in a trade, lol.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Well I don't keep up with the Pads farm system much so I don't know a whole lot about Kottaras but I thought I had heard that he was a pretty good prospect, maybe even MLB-ready in 07. I know that SD needed a pitcher and Wells fit the bill for them, but he was never really that close to becoming a Dodger. Epstein wanted one of our top 3-4 prospects (Kemp was his 1st choice) and that made the deal a non-starter for LA. Maddux OTOH was a great deal for us, I expect LA to resign him for one, maybe two more years.

The thought of Wells going to the Dodgers after the Maddux trade FORCED the Padres into the move (& Epstein just didnt want Kemp - he wanted Kemp & Loney).

Dodgers GM admitted that he was 10 minutes away from actually doing that deal .

The race was so tight at the time especially nobody wanted to be the WC team facing a Pedro lead Mets in a best of 5 (history showed that Pedro was never going to pitch in post season) BUT the threat was there...

[beerchaser]

Dodgers GM admitted that he was 10 minutes away from actually doing that deal.

No way Jose. Sorry FRS but I don't buy that for one second. You'd have to show me video proof of Colletti actually saying that before I'd believe it. As good a job as he did this year Colletti knows he probably would have been fired for making a deal like that. He certainly would have lost the support of Dodger fans, and he knows which side his bread is buttered on.

As for Epstein, why not ask for Kemp AND Loney. He had as good a chance of getting both as he had of getting either one, i.e. none.

[Aisengard]

If Epstein chose Kotteras over Kemp and Loney then he is a bonafide retard. That's why beerchaser probably doubts that it was even on the table.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

He didnt choose I said that Colletti said that he was tempted & was "10 minutes awy from placing the call " to accept.Big difference !

[beerchaser]

I don't think either Kemp or Loney, let alone both, were ever on the table for Wells. Like I said, you'd have to show me tangible proof for me to believe otherwise. Don't confuse what Boston wanted with what LA was actually willing to give them. Theo could have asked for Dodger Stadium, but that doesn't mean it was offered to him. Dodger fans are very aware of the talent in their farm system, and Colletti knows there would have been a lynch mob forming in Chavez Ravine had he given up one of his young studs for a two-month rental of a 43 year old overweight pitcher.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I don't think either Kemp or Loney, let alone both, were ever on the table for Wells. Like I said, you'd have to show me tangible proof for me to believe otherwise. Don't confuse what Boston wanted with what LA was actually willing to give them. Theo could have asked for Dodger Stadium, but that doesn't mean it was offered to him. Dodger fans are very aware of the talent in their farm system, and Colletti knows there would have been a lynch mob forming in Chavez Ravine had he given up one of his young studs for a two-month rental of a 43 year old overweight pitcher.

Colletti interview to MILB October 15th or 16th talking about Dodgers prospects..

He said that it was an unlikely possibility but Theo was really determined & kept bringing up the Padres..

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Colletti best move Betemit definitely for Aybar (wasnt it ?)... anyway this kid will hit & play all inf positions ; I see him moving to 2B next year...

[beerchaser]

He said that it was an unlikely possibility but Theo was really determined & kept bringing up the Padres..

Yes Epstein did try his best to start a bidding war between SD and LA over Wells but it just never got off the ground. Personally I think he and Kevin Towers at SD were working together, just trying to see if they could get LA to cough up something good. That's a lot different from saying that Kemp and/or Loney were actually offered though. They were not.

Colletti best move Betemit definitely for Aybar (wasnt it ?)... anyway this kid will hit & play all inf positions ; I see him moving to 2B next year...

Yes Betemit was a good trade, probably not Colletti's best though, I'd say Ethier for Milton Bradley was his best. Ethier practically carried the Dodgers for awhile mid-season. Bradley was persona non grata in LA but he's done ok in Oakland so that worked well both ways. Maddux trade worked great too, there was no place left in LA for Cesar Izturis. Izturis was hurt most of the year, then wanted to keep playing SS even with Furcal in place, so he had to go.

Betemit's value is his versatility, not sure where his long-term value is though, maybe just as a super-utility guy. Dodgers have prospects coming soon at 3B and 2B and Furcal is entrenched at SS. He may be traded in another year or so unless he really produces big.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Yes Betemit was a good trade, probably not Colletti's best though, I'd say Ethier for Milton Bradley was his best. Ethier practically carried the Dodgers for awhile mid-season. Bradley was persona non grata in LA but he's done ok in Oakland so that worked well both ways. Maddux trade worked great too, there was no place left in LA for Cesar Izturis. Izturis was hurt most of the year, then wanted to keep playing SS even with Furcal in place, so he had to go.

Betemit's value is his versatility, not sure where his long-term value is though, maybe just as a super-utility guy. Dodgers have prospects coming soon at 3B and 2B and Furcal is entrenched at SS. He may be traded in another year or so unless he really produces big.

I was looking at what was given up & upside.Betemit they lost a marginal & Bet has a great bat & defence & is still very young but is now a proven talent

Ethier had a great season true but at the end his "rookiness" caught up with (benched for awhile right ?) & he is at his limit (scouts view) Q is will he reproduce -that's my "knock"

Maddux trade was a rental turned possible keeper (great what he did) but is he worth 9 mill a year for a guy who is "looking over the edge of a cliff" pitching wise ?

[beerchaser]

Ethier had a great season true but at the end his "rookiness" caught up with (benched for awhile right ?) & he is at his limit (scouts view) Q is will he reproduce -that's my "knock"

Ethier simply got worn down at the end of the season. He was having to carry the team on his back for awhile, and he's not used to the grind of a MLB season yet. I think he'll be ok. He's not really a 30HR guy, but a .300+ average with 15-20HR and 80-90 RBI seems doable for him.

Maddux trade was a rental turned possible keeper (great what he did) but is he worth 9 mill a year for a guy who is "looking over the edge of a cliff" pitching wise ?

Good question. But Maddux isn't exactly a power pitcher anyway and is still very efficient with his pitches so I think he can can still give 6 good innings a game for another year or two. If he had to rely on his "stuff" like Randy Johnson then yeah I'd be worried about "looking over the cliff". But Maddux relies on guile not stuff and I thnk being moved to a team in a pennant race helped to relight his competitive fire a little bit as opposed to being on the Cubs.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Good question. But Maddux isn't exactly a power pitcher anyway and is still very efficient with his pitches so I think he can can still give 6 good innings a game for another year or two. If he had to rely on his "stuff" like Randy Johnson then yeah I'd be worried about "looking over the cliff". But Maddux relies on guile not stuff and I thnk being moved to a team in a pennant race helped to relight his competitive fire a little bit as opposed to being on the Cubs.

But worth 9 mill ? I mean Schmidt will be asking that sort of money & he is still in his prime (or d@mn close) wouldnt it be better sign Schmidt & let Maddux have a 3 mill plus a load of incentives (like Wells when he signed with Boston)

[ohms_law]

well, this thread hung onto being about mogul for a couple of day's, but it's inevitably slipped into being more about real baseball.
*shrug*

no trouble. it's an interesting conversation. I wish I had something to actually contribute to the discussion.

...well, there is my thoughts about Maddox. I tend to think that he'll still be pitching 5 years from now. The guy knows how to strike out batters, and more importantly how to get them to ground out. He doesn't use power at all, but control and misdirection. I don't honestly forsee any "cliff" at all for him, since he really does pitch rather than throw the ball.