BB2K7 Personality System

Looking for your feedback on the new Personality Profile for BB2K7.

As you know, I added personalities to BB2K6 -- this was a cool addition that had a small effect on gameplay, but some of the adjectives (like "silly" and "proper") were confusing -- and the impact on things like contract negotiations were somewhat unclear.

I'm improving this system by adding a 9-point Personality Profile to every Scouting Report in BB2K7. You no longer have to guess what "wacky and unpretentious" means about a player.

All personality ratings are from '-50' to '+50'. These are the 9 areas in which each player is rated:

1) Ambition. A straightforward measure of the player's desire to win a World Championship. A high score means the player will make sacrifices to play for a contender, and/or demand that his team make moves that improve the team. Note that this doesn't reflect a player's work habits or performance in the playoffs -- it simply shows his internal desire to be with a contender as compared to other factors.

2) Modesty. Low scores describe players that are egotistical or boastful. High scores reflect humility and a tendency to put the team ahead of personal accomplishments.

3) Charisma. Fan-friendliness. Low scores are aloof or even rude. Higher scores are lovable and photogenic.

4) Camradery. Friendliness and chumminess INSIDE the clubhouse. This trait isn't always a good thing. A gregarious player like David Ortiz might not be happy in a reserved clubhouse of professional superstars like the Yankees.

5) Restraint. An even temper. Low scores reflect players that are excitable and even prone to fights. Higher scores show patience in these situations.

6) Charity. The opposite of 'Charity' is 'Greed'. Players with low Charity scores will put more value on money than other factors in negotations. Low charity combined with low modesty can lead to very demanding players.

7) Seriousness. Serious, strait-laced. Some might say 'boring'. These players don't waste much energy on hugs, practical jokes and the like.

8) Professionalism. Low scores indicate the appearance of a casual or even sloppy approach to the game and the personal appearance. Long hair and untucked shirts. High scores show a more organized attitude. Like seriousness, this trait doesn't have an effect on gameplay BY ITSELF as much as it affects TEAM chemistry. A team of laid-back players can get along as well as a team of high-strung competitors.

9) Community. The weight the player puts on his home, family and community. High scores indicate players that will give a "hometown discount" to stay with a team (or move to their hometown). Low scores indicate players that will switch teams for the highest bidder.

In addition to the 9 above, the Profile also shows Happiness and Popularity.

Happiness. This is the one rating that varies the most. In some ways it is the "summation" of the other nine, as it reflects how well the player's personality fits with other players on the team. It also reflects how happy the player is with his current role on the team.

Popularity. Primarily a function of performance, it is also affected by Charisma and a few other factors like Charity. High popularity scores will help fill the seats. For example, Cal Ripken Jr. had an extremely high score at the end of his career, leading people to buy tickets even when the Orioles were losing.

I need some feedback on this list. For example, I'm having some problems with the "Seriousness" and "Professionalism" traits, and how they might relate to traits like "Focus", "Drive" and "Leadership".

Jason Varitek is seen as focused, driven, serious, professional, and a good leader. However, it's hard to think of a starting catcher that DOESN'T share these traits. While guys like Pedro Martinez and David Ortiz might be playing practical jokes on each other in the dugout, a catcher has to keep his head in the game.

So it could be redundant to add stats like "Leadership", only to find that every successful catcher (from Joe Torre and Joe Carter to Jorge Posada and A.J. Pierzynski) has a high score in this area.

Also, I'm having trouble nailing down the effect of something like "Focus". A player like Roger Clemens is praised for his "focus". His off-season workout routine. His demeanor on the mound. His drive. And he's successful.

A player like Manny Ramirez is described as "unfocused", "laid-back", "absent-minded". However, an argument can be made that he's the most focused batter in the majors. When he steps up to the plate, it doesn't matter if it's April or October. He has the same approach every time. Loose, relaxed. Ready to hit.

For this reason, I haven't included a "focus" trait. Instead I use other traits to differentiate these types of players. Traits like "Modesty" (Manny = moderately high; Roger = very low), "Professionalism" (Manny = very low; Roger = high) and "Restraint" (Manny = high; Roger = low), Seriousness (Manny = very low; Roger = high).

So, THREE THINGS I would love to see posted in this thread.

1) Feedback on the list itself. Are some of these redundant? Are other traits needed? What do you really want to see?

2) EXAMPLES of players that, in your opinion, exemplify high and low scores in each of these traits.

3) PERSONALITY PROFILES. Pick a player you think you know fairly well. Rate him from -50 to +50 in each of the traits listed above.

I think the posting of #2 and #3, and the arguments surrounding them, will help me figure out the best answers to #1.

Thanks!

Clay

1) Ambition: 50 (All he wants now are rings)
2) Camradery: -30 (Doesn't seem like a clubhouse chum)
3) Charisma: -10 (Some love him. More hate him)
4) Charity: -20 (Seems somewhat self-absorbed)
5) Community: 40 (Pitching in Houston is important, but doesn't match Ambition)
6) Modesty: -50 (Is there a bigger ego in baseball?)
7) Professionalism: 50 (Driven!)
8) Restraint: -40 (Remember the 2001 World Series?)
9) Seriousness: 40 (Not much joviality here)

Love the improvements Clay. This area last year was a good start - but it is good to see there is strong improvement here.

Couple of questions first:

Will these personalities change throughout a players career? Maybe one player is really enjoying his time with a team - will the community personality increase?

Will there be any way to see a general look at your teams chemistry? Maybe a screen that averages all of these? Or just some general idea of the clubhouse? Or it would be awesome if you included at the end of all these traits something that said if this player was a "good fit", "average fit", or "poor fit" with your team.

I really like your improvements on the personality system. Will personalities be random or pre-set from the CD?

Here's my recommendation for Gary Sheffield.

1) Ambition: 10 Sheffield wants to be part of a winning team and says that he took less to go with the Yankees. I don't quite agree with that statement because I don't remember many teams being interested in him. He said last year that if he were to be traded he wanted his "entire situation" changed, meaning lots of money and extra years added on to his contract. Sheff wants to win but only for selfish reasons.
2) Modesty: -40 Sheffield once questioned Derek Jeter's leadership and proclaimed himself in the papers as the "true captain" of the Yankees. He also once said that no one in baseball can strike him out. Gary reacted to the steroid allegations about himself by saying, "I'm no Jason Giambi."
3) Charisma: -10 Wherever Sheffield goes, he wears out his welcome quickly. I think Yankee fans are spilt on Gary some like his boldness, others can't stand his ego.
4) Chamradery: -30 Sheffield has been kicked out of many clubhouses throughout the years, although he's very close with A-Rod.
5) Restraint: -30 I've seen him get in confrontations with umpires and always is glaring back at an umpire after a "bad call."
6) Charity: -20 He's pretty demanding and once called George Steinbrenner a liar claming that there was a clause in his contract stating that he was due a bonus.
7) Seriousness: 10 I see Sheffield as a serious person, but I don't think he's takes the game that seriously because he often lets up on balls in the outfield, never hustles. When played 3B in Milwaukee he purposely threw a ball into the stands.
8) Professionalism: -20 As I've said that he doesn't take the game seriously. Never hustles, lets balls drop in the outfield that he could reach, etc.
9) -10 He likes New York although his #1 concern is money.

we need to have an option to edit these.

i love this idea. i talked about it in length just a few days ago in a post about how i would really like a numerical rating of more different aspects of a player's personality.

i have two ideas for other personality traits that i also mentioned in a recent post. first, what if players had ratings based on knowledge of the game which might affect their ability to improve, maybe allow them to peak higher, and could be changed based on playing with players with higher knowledge levels? this might work well if it's tied to the other personality ratings. for instance, players with good charisma and comradery may be more willing to impart their knowledge on rookies. this could add true meaning to a player's tenure. rookies would be more like rookies and veterans would be more like veterans, and you can gain some measure of what a player knows, like you would be able to as a gm. also, players with good knowledge could go on to become good managers. players becoming mangers would be very cool, but that's for another thread.

another personality trait i'd suggest would be luck, or guts. something that measures a player's ability to deliver in the clutch, and to run out a few extra groundballs. it would add more depth to the game if some players had a knack for delivering in the playoffs, while others might have a slight tendancy to choke.

baseball is a game of personalities even more than it is about athleticism, so i'm excited to a deeper representation of that. i hope my ideas were helpful. thanks in advance for fulfulling one of my biggest wants for the next game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough

focused, driven, serious, professional, and a good leader. However, it's hard to think of a starting catcher that DOESN'T share these traits.

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Piazza, maybe? Rick Dempsey, probably--he was a cut-up and clowned around alot.

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Originally Posted by boomboom

we need to have an option to edit these.

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Absolutely. I plan to include a text file listing each player followed by the personality ratings. With help from these forums, we'll probably be able to ship with most of the better-known current players included, and maybe some historical ones.

Clay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dps

Piazza, maybe? Rick Dempsey, probably--he was a cut-up and clowned around alot.

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This is going to be an awesome game. I like the idea of having maybe a clubhouse atmosphere in the headlines options. I mean a team that hates each other could be known their and who has a problem with their teammates as well?

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Originally Posted by asciipenguin

another personality trait i'd suggest would be luck, or guts. something that measures a player's ability to deliver in the clutch, and to run out a few extra groundballs. it would add more depth to the game if some players had a knack for delivering in the playoffs, while others might have a slight tendancy to choke.

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For the ground balls, I've been thinking of adding something like 'Drive' or 'Focus' or 'Determination'. But I probably ALSO need to add something like 'Composure' for clutch situations. For example, Manny Ramirez doesn't run out ground balls, but he is also totally unfazed by the 'pressure' of the playoffs. So he would have low 'Drive' but high 'Composure'.

Lots of SABR folks have done research finding virtually no evidence of a 'clutch' ability. But they tend to look at things like Runners-In-Scoring-Position, because the sample sizes are so small in the playoffs.

That said, there is at least anecdotal evidence that I would rather have David Ortiz or Hideki Matsui at the plate in the 9th inning of Game 7, instead of perhaps A-Rod or Vlad Guerrero or even Barry Bonds. I think 'Composure' would describe this well, without adding an actual 'Clutch' rating.

I may throw out 'Professionalism' or 'Seriousness' as they seem to overlap a lot.

Clay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough

Absolutely. I plan to include a text file listing each player followed by the personality ratings. With help from these forums, we'll probably be able to ship with most of the better-known current players included, and maybe some historical ones.

Clay

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it would be nice to beable to edit it via the scouting report Player editor.

Clay, you may want to take a look at www.hattrick.org. Their personality model is a bit simpler but works nicely.

As for mogul, how about letting the player set the club personality, then based on how closely the players match the 'corporate culture' of the club will say alot about their personal happiness and team chemistry. The whole Yankee/Exxon mentality versus the Red Sox/Idiot mindset.

As for programming it. based on your indicators, a player can either be close to the Corp culture of the team (+) or far away from it (-). Too many players in the (-) and you have bad chemistry. Alot of players in the (+) and you have creamy goodness. It would also bring up scenarios where you need to trade certain players because they are so far off the mark personality wise that they bring the whole team down (cancers). Examples - Milton Bradley for the Dodgers and Kent for the Mets. Obviously, if you are winning, it adds a (+) to the team chemistry, losing, a (-).

Ideas for Focus-
Effect players keeping their ratings longer. A guy with a high focus/work ethic will not lose his skills as fast as a guy with a low focus.
Consistency the higher the focus the more consistent the player will be through the season.

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Originally Posted by brooklynlou

As for mogul, how about letting the player set the club personality, then based on how closely the players match the 'corporate culture' of the club will say alot about their personal happiness and team chemistry. The whole Yankee/Exxon mentality versus the Red Sox/Idiot mindset.

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This sounds good as clubhouse personality can be set by the manager/coaches and other employees of the club including the GM(wouldn't it be great if Mark Cuban had bought the Pirates).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough

For the ground balls, I've been thinking of adding something like 'Drive' or 'Focus' or 'Determination'. But I probably ALSO need to add something like 'Composure' for clutch situations. For example, Manny Ramirez doesn't run out ground balls, but he is also totally unfazed by the 'pressure' of the playoffs. So he would have low 'Drive' but high 'Composure'.

Lots of SABR folks have done research finding virtually no evidence of a 'clutch' ability. But they tend to look at things like Runners-In-Scoring-Position, because the sample sizes are so small in the playoffs.

That said, there is at least anecdotal evidence that I would rather have David Ortiz or Hideki Matsui at the plate in the 9th inning of Game 7, instead of perhaps A-Rod or Vlad Guerrero or even Barry Bonds. I think 'Composure' would describe this well, without adding an actual 'Clutch' rating.

I may throw out 'Professionalism' or 'Seriousness' as they seem to overlap a lot.

Clay

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The anecdotal evidence isn't very strong for clutch in the playoffs. Barry Bonds, one of your "choke masters", has a very nice .245/.433/.503 line in the playoffs, carrer-wise, and put up one of the greatest playoffs of all time in 2002 with 8 HRs and an unbelievable .471/.700/1.294 line in the seven World Series games. Jeter, the poster child of "clutch", isn't a great postseason player: his .307/.379/.463 playoff line is a little worse than his .314/.386/.461 carrer line. Ortiz, one of your examples, has been pretty much a complete dog in the playoffs except for in 2004 and the 4-for-12 this year, going 9 for 47 with two doubles and two homers in 03, and a better 8 for 29 in 02 for the Twins. I dont think more or less of any of these players for their playoff performance, or lack thereof. I do know that including any sort of mechanic that would make players perform better or worse in the playoffs than the regular season other than a fatigue factor, or facing a better pitching staff, would ruin a lot of this game.

I like all of these personality things, except for professionalism and camradery. If these thing affect fan attendance, how players negotiate deals, great, I love it, I'm all for it. But if it affects gameplay other than maybe leading into brawls and ejections and the like (a small amount of the time), I'm against it, especially the team chemistry. I mean the Astros this season had some uptight guys on their team with Clemens, Biggio, Bagwell, and some really loose guys with Berkman and Burke, and that really hurt them, right? 'Team Chemistry' really just makes for a good filler piece on SportsCenter, every so often, I don't believe it has much of an effect on anything. Every once in a while you'll get bickering players on a bad team, like a Milton Bradley, so maybe a few players should have 'baggage', which would lead to loafing around if you can't keep 'em happy (by winning), but otherwise just have players play the game normally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brooklynlou

Clay, you may want to take a look at www.hattrick.org. Their personality model is a bit simpler but works nicely.

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Here's the list:

Agreeability
beloved team member
popular guy
sympathetic guy
pleasant guy
controversial person
nasty fellow

Honesty
saintly
righteous
upright
honest
dishonest
infamous

Aggressivity
tranquil
calm
balanced
temperamental
fiery

Team spirit
Paradise on Earth!
walking on clouds
delirious
satisfied
content
calm
composed
irritated
furious
murderous
like the Cold War

Team confidence
extremely exaggerated
completely exaggerated
slightly exaggerated
wonderful
strong
decent
poor
wretched
disastrous
non-existent

We've got everything covered already except Honesty. I'm not sure how important that is -- nor if we could do a decent job of estimating an 'honesty' value for current players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough

Here's the list:

Agreeability
beloved team member
popular guy
sympathetic guy
pleasant guy
controversial person
nasty fellow

Honesty
saintly
righteous
upright
honest
dishonest
infamous

Aggressivity
tranquil
calm
balanced
temperamental
fiery

Team spirit
Paradise on Earth!
walking on clouds
delirious
satisfied
content
calm
composed
irritated
furious
murderous
like the Cold War

Team confidence
extremely exaggerated
completely exaggerated
slightly exaggerated
wonderful
strong
decent
poor
wretched
disastrous
non-existent

We've got everything covered already except Honesty. I'm not sure how important that is -- nor if we could do a decent job of estimating an 'honesty' value for current players.

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Just think now you can know and have a team full of a**holes probably not the best combination of a team, but I can already see the headlines of tommorrow. :D

Just what does the personality option get me as an owner/manager? Unless you rig game play so that a bad locker room atmosphere leads to teams blowing leads, collapsing in August/September, and so on, while a superb clubhouse leads to team members playing above their ability for that one memorable drive to the pennant, I don't see how it matters that much to the game.

For that matter, I don't understand the "friendship" thing either, as it seems everyone in the league is great friends with a utility player they've never played with. It seems to me either they should want to be with someone from their hometown/college, or some guy they played with (in the minors or majors), or at least some league superstar.

This is going to cause some problems, as I'm seeing it now. Playoff samples are almost universally small, and basically used as an excuse to elevate players who don't deserve it. Bonds has a .933 playoff OPS, anyway, and the guy hit for an OPS of 1.994 in the series--what more could his team want from him?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LankfordFanClub

This is going to cause some problems, as I'm seeing it now. Playoff samples are almost universally small, and basically used as an excuse to elevate players who don't deserve it. Bonds has a .933 playoff OPS, anyway, and the guy hit for an OPS of 1.994 in the series--what more could his team want from him?

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Leadership Maybe?? :D

In Hattrick, Honesty is a way to measure just how often a player is willing to cheat / take a dive / etc. It also increases that player's chance of getting carded (as does aggresivity)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brooklynlou

In Hattrick, Honesty is a way to measure just how often a player is willing to cheat / take a dive / etc. It also increases that player's chance of getting carded (as does aggresivity)

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I want my players sheating. I'd love my 38 year old star 300 win pitcher get caught scuffing a ball or 3rd catcher corking. I dig it.

Suggestion here would be to have the setting for the team/clubhouse be a manager thing... hire/fire managers as they all have their own personality and how they run their club and clubhouse... would then affect how the players react and fit in... as opposed to just letting us pick what the setting for the team would be...

Other than that digging this completely!

Here are a few Jays players that come to mind:

Frank Catalanotto
1) Ambition: -40 (he just wants to play, ******!)
2) Camradery: 20 (seems to get along with most guys, but not a beer after work guy either)
3) Charisma: 10 (generally liked, but not in the limelight)
4) Charity: 40 (again, not about the money, more about the playing time)
5) Community: 0 (will do PR for a team in the community, but will go where he can get playing time again as mentioned earlier)
6) Modesty: 40 (not a superstar, but gives 110% and never complains)
7) Professionalism: 40 (very focused)
8) Restraint: 40 (doesn't lose his cool or seem to ever argue with the umps)
9) Seriousness: 20 (serious about playing, but willing to be a little self-deprecating in interviews)

Roy Halladay
1) Ambition: 10 (wants to win, but is patient and took a long-term contract with the Jays knowing there would be some lean years)
2) Camradery: -10 (not offensive, but doesn't seem to pal around either)
3) Charisma: 30 (he's one of the few draws for Jays fans over the last few years and is used extensively in their advertising)
4) Charity: -20 (clearly money was greater than ambition in him staying with the Jays)
5) Community: 10 (genuinely likes Toronto and does the occasional community event, but still not greater than his money desires)
6) Modesty: -10 (seems to have a slight attitude, but doesn't openly complain)
7) Professionalism: 40 (not a Clemens, but still incredibly focused and worked out to come back early after injuries, though mgmt kept him back)
8) Restraint: -10 (didn't complain when mgmt wouldn't let him return last year, but has gotten into arguments with umpires/showed frustration on the mound)
9) Seriousness: 25 (seems relaxed in ads, but game-day interviews he's nothing but business)

And now a former Blue Jay:
Carlos Delgado
1) Ambition: -30 (says he wants to win, but has always been more about the money than anything else)
2) Camradery: -30 (openly complained his last year in Toronto about the youth on the bench and players not being seasoned enough to play)
3) Charisma: 10 (Overall liked by the home town, but people know he wants the benjamins)
4) Charity: -50 (primarily dollar-focused - he would be a full-time DH for the right price)
5) Community: -40 (never did many public appearances in Toronto or seemed involved in the city at all)
6) Modesty: -40 (thinks every year he should be in the MVP race)
7) Professionalism: 30 (he shows up to play and will play through some degree of injuries)
8) Restraint: -30 (definitely a hot-head, especially at critics in the press, but never saw him start brawls either)
9) Seriousness: 30 (pretty serious - seldom see him crack a joke or smile much)

Again, these are just my opinions, I could be wrong....

All,

Thanks for your feedback so far. I've tweaked the names some.

Professionalism is now 'Drive'.

Modesty is now 'Ego' (and I inverted all the ratings).

Restraint is now 'Aggression' (again, this has the exact reverse meaning)

Charity is now 'Greed' (also reversed)

Attached is the Personality file I'll be shipping with the game. I've added the 4 players that were posted here, but it's mostly empty. I don't have time to come up with a lot of personality data. So if you edit this file and post it, I'll use the work you did in BB2K7.

(It would be helpful if you only include rows for players you ADDED to the file).

Thanks!

Clay

Hello, one of the few times posting here but ive been a fan and player for a good 4 years now. I agree with some previous posts about the managerial question of how they do levy a clubhouse depending on their own personalitys. So that is an issue, if ur going to put an emphasis on a players ability to change a clubhouse.
Secondly, as also mentioned before, perhaps a Wisdom/Knowledge meter. You hear it all the time, It is the peak of the player. As a raw rookie ur knowledge level is low, but as ur years of experience go up so does your knowledge. Isnt that what peak means? The point where ur physical and mental aspects of the game are at the greatest? If there were some way of quikening this, a wiley 42 year old pitcher with succes? maybe instead of taking a raw rookie 4-7 years ( dont know wut the numbers would be) to reach his peak, maybe with veteran leadership around him he could cut the number 1/3? maybe only 3-5 years? that would be a nice reason to keep ur vets around besides the fan draw and personal stats.
Lastly, as far as the "clutch" trait being thrown around. I deem it impossible to apply this to any kind of simulation,fact that there would also have to be a "clutch" for defensive players along with pitchers (don mattingly was concidered clutch, but wut if he tatoos a ball to center, and the CF is clutch with a range and defensive factor of 96 and catches it? does that make mattingly a choke?) Instead i prupose a "Luck" factor.
The "Luck" factor would be used to show how a player does in Clutch situations. RISP, Laying down a bunt, executing a hit and run, making a spectacular diving play, striking a guy out ect. This way u could be the best hitter/pitcher in the league, but with low luck his/her chances of doing what they are supposed to decreases. There are so many interesting factors u could tie into the "Luck" category. Stadium crowd, history against hitter/batter. The actual batting order (Yankees order would intimidate a pitcher with low "luck"). Aspects like personal players hot streaks, team streaks ect. A world of possibilities.
Just my 2 cents

Bill Mueller

1) Ambition. (-10)
2) Modesty. (50)
Low scores describe players that are egotistical or boastful. High scores reflect humility and a tendency to put the team ahead of personal accomplishments.

3) Charisma. (30) Fans seem to love him. Always a fan favorite.
Fan-friendliness. Low scores are aloof or even rude. Higher scores are lovable and photogenic.

4) Camradery. (10)
Friendliness and chumminess INSIDE the clubhouse. This trait isn't always a good thing. A gregarious player like David Ortiz might not be happy in a reserved clubhouse of professional superstars like the Yankees.

5) Restraint. (50)
An even temper. Low scores reflect players that are excitable and even prone to fights. Higher scores show patience in these situations.

6) Charity. (10) I'm not too sure.
The opposite of 'Charity' is 'Greed'. Players with low Charity scores will put more value on money than other factors in negotations. Low charity combined with low modesty can lead to very demanding players.

7) Seriousness. (20)
Serious, strait-laced. Some might say 'boring'. These players don't waste much energy on hugs, practical jokes and the like.

8) Professionalism. (40)
Low scores indicate the appearance of a casual or even sloppy approach to the game and the personal appearance. Long hair and untucked shirts. High scores show a more organized attitude. Like seriousness, this trait doesn't have an effect on gameplay BY ITSELF as much as it affects TEAM chemistry. A team of laid-back players can get along as well as a team of high-strung competitors.

9) Community. (0)
The weight the player puts on his home, family and community. High scores indicate players that will give a "hometown discount" to stay with a team (or move to their hometown). Low scores indicate players that will switch teams for the highest bidder.

What about the clutch rating? Is that going to get in? There are some players that are Mr. October and others that choke big.