When a pitcher gives up a home run, how much of the blame should go to the catcher, for calling the wrong pitch or setting up in the wrong location?
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When a pitcher gives up a home run, how much of the blame should go to the catcher, for calling the wrong pitch or setting up in the wrong location?
I dont think it can be too much blame, afterall a pitcher decides if he wants to throw the pitch the catcher signals to him. And even if the pitch is perfect it can still be hit a long ways by some of the players, but i guess then that wouldnt be a perfect pitch. Eh, lets just blame it all on probability.
It really depends each time. If the catcher has a big target right down the middle of the plate naturally it is partly the catchers fault, but if the catcher sets up low and away and the pitch is thrown high and in then gets hit for a homerun none of the blame should be on the catcher. Catchers are very strategic and if a pitcher shakes them off and then gets a home run hit off him, the pitcher is at fault.
I've always been of the belief that, insofar as the catcher instructs a game's pitchers with what to throw and to some extent the positioning of fielders, he should be credited with wins and losses in the same manner a pitcher is.
Should he be credited with HR's allowed though? I dunno.
Normally Homers come on pitchers mistakes, not what pitch or location of the pitch that catchers called.
it would be the pitchers fault, because they couldnt throw the ball where the catcher set up...Quote:
Originally Posted by anaveragecow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough
I think it is fine the way it is. Should the catcher also be charged with say, a blown strikeout if he frames the pitch poorly? I think that Jason Varitek would likely lead the league in BS (blown strikeouts) if that were a stat. He often moves around after the pitch is released to screw up the other teams. He really moves alot if he thinks that a team is stealing signs. Watch him when Alex Rodriguez is on second some time (he is convinced that Arod steals signs and at times it appears he's right). He will set up for a low and away and move to a standing position to change the location. No way an umpire can get a good read with so much motion and outright view obstruction in front of him.
If anyone can find it, I suggest a book by Ron Luciano called "The Umpire Strikes Back". It is a really interesting read and lots of funny stories about players from the 60's and 70's. The main reason I am suggesting it here though is that it also is full of explanations on how umpires are trained to make calls. He also goes into great detail about how catchers will try to steal a call by pulling pitches back etc.. There are a few stories on how Carlton Fisk would mess with hitters to help the pitchers (a lot of Tom Berengers' character in "Major League" seems to be based on Carlton.) get strikeouts. He was an infamous ump in the 70s for his on field behavior and tossing Billy Martin and Earl Weaver more than any other ump ever. :)
Sorry to keep on replying to myself but here's an excerpt from the book. It is an at bat with Luis Tiant pitching, and Charlie Spikes of the Indians at bat when Carlton was still with Boston Ronnie is the ump. (As spikes dug himself into the batters box Fisk started muttering, "You're right, Ronnie, all he wants to throw is that curveball."
"Huh?" I blinked my eyes to clear my ears. I hadn't said any such thing.
"...Curve, curve, curve,you'd think that was the only pitch he can throw. I keep telling him they're gonna wrap it around his neck..."
I could see the wheels spinning in in Spikes's head. Curveball? Fastball? Fisk had him thinking. He was in serious trouble. Tiant threw a fastball down the middle of the plate. Spikes's bat never moved. Strike one.
Charlie stepped out of the box and knocked imaginary dirt clumps out of his cleats. When he started getting resettled in the box, Fisk mumbled, seemingly to himself, "All right, now Louie, com'on lemme see that heater."
Fastball. Spikes tensed. Tiant threw a curveball, just a little outside. Ball one. Fisk exploded. "#$#$'($%! I told him I wanted the fastball." He hopped up and trotted out to the mound. I could see him standing there bawling out Tiant. Luis was nodding as if he understood. When Carltoncame back to the plate he shook his head disgustedly. "He says he misunderstood the sign. We'll see."
Fisk hunkered down into his crouch and shook his head. This was a signal to Tiant. He wanted Tiant to shake his head, in turn to make the batter think he was rejecting Fisk's signal. Tiant shook his head. "D@mmit," Fisk screamed, "that d@mn curveball. No way I'm gonna let him throw it again. No way." Tiant broke off a sharp curveball for strike two.
"Son of a @$#%" Fisk screamed, and stalked out to the mound again. Even from behind the plate I could hear him yelling at Tiant. Then he slammed the ball into Louie's glove and stomped back. "Now, was that a fastball, Ronnie? Huh? He's trying to tell me that was his fastball."
"Well I..." I started to reply.
He really wasn't interested in my opinion. "Course it wasn't," he continued . "I know a $#%$(&% curve when I see one. What's he trying to tell me that was a heater? All right, one more chance." He yelled to Tiant, "Fastball, Louie, throw the fastball."
It really made no difference what pitch he threw, Spikes had no chance. Fisk knew it. I knew it. Even Spikes knew it. He was trying so hard to outguess Fisk that he had completely lost his concentration. He moved up in the batters box a few inches to jump on the curve before it broke down. Tiant blew the good fastball right past him. He struck out without a swing. I credited that strikeout to Carlton Fisk. Evidently so did Spikes. Without a word of warning he spun around, grabbed Fisk and started punching him. I was laughing so hard I could hardly break up the fight.
:)
That's great! It doesn't get any better than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by robinhoodnik
It's always been my opinion that catchers call the game while pitchers find ways to ruin the game. I don't think that catchers are responsible for home runs it seems that the pitchers just miss and thats the cause for home runs. A bad pitch is worth a thousand words.
Kinda gives you even more respect for Fisk when you find out stuff like that.
what was the book called again I can't seem to find the name. lol thats a great excerpt.Quote:
Originally Posted by SFSteveG
It's called "The Umpire Strikes Back" by Ron Luciano and David Fisher. My copy is from Bantam Books and copyrighted in 1982. My current copy is a hardcover but I've also had a paperback version too. I just did a search on Amazon and there are 23 copies from one cent to one dollar. Definately a good deal.
Some other book reviews.........
The Little Red (Sox) Book, A Revisionist History by Bill Lee with Jim Prime from Triumph Books : Good read and pretty funny stuff. What else would you expect from The Spaceman?
Men At Work by George F. Will from Mcmillan : Another good book. I love this one. Interesting stuff.
The New Biographical History of Baseball by Donald Dewey and Nicholas Acocella from Triumph Books : An excellent reference work that has a lot of information about the whys and hows of many different players, managers and management. It as a biographical work does not include all players but it does include facts on greats, and players who had an effect on rules, equipment development and other firsts. If you find it, buy it you wil not be disappointed with this one.
You Gotta Have Wa by Robert Whiting from Mcmillan : A book about Japanese baseball and largely focusing on Americans who played there. Stuff in here about the xenophobia and racisim involved with playing in Japan. Also lots of insight into the major differences in training philosophy (they are insanely into practice and repetition) and strategy. Another really, really fascinating book. After reading this, I wonder why more Japanese players don't make a run for it.
Countdown to Cobb by Pete Rose with Hal Bodley published by The Sporting News : A day by day diary by Pete. It really is awful. I love Pete but this is the answer to surgury without drugs. An absolute must not read unless you really are bored of everything in this world, and have this as the very last thing on your to do list before you die. I had this on the back of my throne for about three months and still could not bring myself to finish it.
I got more but these are the real standouts of the bunch.
Clay if a Catcher is going to be "blamed for home runs" and "credited for strikeouts" then there should be a new Rating as well. I would suggest an "Intimidation" or "Presence" rating.
oh boy that was an awesome display of fooling with someones mind
There's a new rating ("Handling") that specifies how well a catcher handles pitchers, frames the strike zone, and calls the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bgsexy66
I know, but I was thinking that you were going to add another rating to the Catchers profile. Hence I suggested "Intimidation" and/or "Prescence".Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough
Let's hear it for resurrected polls! yay!
:rolleyes:
Who bumped this???
I have no idea why this thread was ressurected, but I missed this post way back then. Catchers are in fact "credited" with strikeouts by traditional defensive statistics. A strikeout counts as a putout for a catcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bgsexy66
I'm a catcher so I have to say none of the blame goes to the catcher for a homerun lol.
OH MAN HANDLING IS BEING ADDED? SWEET!!!!!!
oh...wait...
That.Quote:
Originally Posted by rollsroyce11991
Pointless feature to be added to BM09 though, I would suggest Clay should work on a feature that I can optimize the number of bullpen pitchers first over this useless handling rating.
none, the pitcher has the final say.
Prove it. No doubt that a pitcher throwing a bad pitch can have bad results. However, I think the effect that a game plan has on a game shouldn't be overestimated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Troll
The pitcher AND catcher, realistically, work TOGETHER in calling the game during the game.
as a former catcher myself collegiately, the pitcher always has the final say and i've never seen one to not accept that responsibility after giving up a dinger. the myth that bull durham created (don't shake me off meat) is something i've never seen. any catcher i've ever talked to collegiately at least has never had the final say on what is thrown and i'd seriously doubt the catcher gets more power in the professional game. Even Varitek, one of the most senior catchers and most respected for his gameplan is shook off all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
Try your local library-Luciano wrote a number of humourous books...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bgsexy66
I blame steroids. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that the pitcher doesn't have the final say.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
I'm also not saying that in BM the catcher's handling rating should be responsible for home runs given up.
I'm saying that, in reality, baseball is a much more complex strategical game than it appears.
The approach that a team (and specific pitcher) takes in pitching a hitter plays a role as well as that of the pitcher's ability and execution of the pitch.
Ok, Clay I know you are looking for a programming answer. A reliable, good catcher should be blamed almost 0%. A young catcher even with 3 veterans will screw up often and about 10%.
That is probably one of the hardest intrinsics of the game but maybe put an experience scale separate of offensive stats. IE, lets take a new uber catcher who will hit 10 HRs, 66 RBIs, and have super defense all at the age of 21. His arm is so strong he can throw out a man off base at 2nd. Now put 4 veterans pitching to him and he doesnt have a clue till at least age 25. This is Pudge Rod and he has even said 27 y/o. Tuff one to program.
i agree about the approach and the catcher is involved in developing a plan. the pitcher may also agree with the catchers call and the catcher can have a large part in "winning" the game with a good strategy of pitch calls. The question was though, how much blame does the catcher get....and everything i've ever seen has been that the pitcher always has the final say in what pitch he throws and always accepts the blame. So while a catcher can win a game by calling the right pitches, he can never lose the game as the pitcher has to make those pitches and prohibit contact or shake the catcher off and do his thing...and again make those pitches and prohibit contact.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
I should be a catcher...all the credit and none of the blame. Good deal.
The pitcher may well accept the blame. I wasn't reading the word 'blame' as blame, but more as responsibility. The pitcher, the catcher, the pitching coach, the manager, the scouts all share responsibility for the results. And sometimes a hitter just hits a damn good pitch...
I voted 2% based solely on Crash Davis' antics in Bull Durham. Don't ever shake off your veteran catcher when you're throwing a 2 hit shutout in the 9th.