Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dps
So you're saying that roughly half of the current players in the Hall are "bottom of the barrel"?
And you do realize that no matter what statistical criteria we rank players by, half of the members of the HoF are going to be in the bottom half of the Hall's membership, right?
I'm not saying that at all.
I am saying that half of the players in the hall of fame are below the average Hall of Famer, and the other half are above.
But as time continues, there will be more players in the 100+ rWAR range that get elected, than there will be guys in that 20-30 rWAR range, and the average Hall of Famer rWAR will continue to rise, it was at 65 not that long ago, now it's up to 69.
Meaning that having a base line of around 70 makes a little more sense, but if someone is in that 55-69 range, their resume should be considered certainly (and then I went on to explain why guys should qualify, primarily because WAR isn't a be-all, end-all stat, but also based on things like being a top 15 player at your position or so, or doing something unique that would drive that value down (like closing))
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
or doing something unique that would drive that value down (like closing))
I'm not a fan of this argument. It's giving extra credit beyond the value the player produced for... what reason exactly?
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I'm not a fan of this argument. It's giving extra credit beyond the value the player produced for... what reason exactly?
Well, catchers for example don't tend to create as much career WAR as other position players, partially because of the number of plate appearances, and also, partially, because maybe we don't understand catcher defensive metrics as well.
And obviously, guys like Mariano and Hoffman were never actually given the opportunity to pitch more innings to give themselves more career WAR.
Of course, if they had been set up men their entire careers instead of closers, nobody would probably think twice about Cooperstown for them.
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
Well, catchers for example don't tend to create as much career WAR as other position players, partially because of the number of plate appearances, and also, partially, because maybe we don't understand catcher defensive metrics as well.
And obviously, guys like Mariano and Hoffman were never actually given the opportunity to pitch more innings to give themselves more career WAR.
Of course, if they had been set up men their entire careers instead of closers, nobody would probably think twice about Cooperstown for them.
Catchers may be underrated in WAR, that's true, but there's arguments to be made that that is the case. An argument that relievers are underrated by WAR, though, is much harder to make.
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
I'm not saying that at all.
I am saying that half of the players in the hall of fame are below the average Hall of Famer, and the other half are above.
But as time continues, there will be more players in the 100+ rWAR range that get elected, than there will be guys in that 20-30 rWAR range, and the average Hall of Famer rWAR will continue to rise, it was at 65 not that long ago, now it's up to 69.
Meaning that having a base line of around 70 makes a little more sense, but if someone is in that 55-69 range, their resume should be considered certainly (and then I went on to explain why guys should qualify, primarily because WAR isn't a be-all, end-all stat, but also based on things like being a top 15 player at your position or so, or doing something unique that would drive that value down (like closing))
Where do you stand on a guy like Sandy Koufax? 49.0 rWAR (53.2 pitcher rWAR - 4.2 hitter rWAR), but one of the greatest six year spans we've ever seen. He lights up the black ink category and kills it in the Hall of Fame Monitor too. It's a tough call. Dare I say that he's borderline? But is he borderline in or borderline out?
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
actionjackson
Where do you stand on a guy like Sandy Koufax? 49.0 rWAR (53.2 pitcher rWAR - 4.2 hitter rWAR), but one of the greatest six year spans we've ever seen. He lights up the black ink category and kills it in the Hall of Fame Monitor too. It's a tough call. Dare I say that he's borderline? But is he borderline in or borderline out?
Koufax is 53rd in career rWAR among hall of famers
Which is mainly because he is 66th among hall of famers in innings pitched
Here are the guys behind him in career innings that started more games than they relieved:
Dizzy Dean
Candy Cummings
Hank O'Day
Two of these three are in as 19th century pitchers, and Dizzy arguably shouldn't be in at all, being a friend of Frisch though, he got in.
I mean, Koufax is all peak, I think that's obvious to everyone. There was no longevity because his career was cut short due to all of the arm injuries he had.
He also enjoyed an enlarged strike zone, pitching in one of the most pitcher friendly ball parks of all time, and did this with a raised mound.
Koufax, while obviously dominant, had a lot of things going for him to help him be that dominant.
I mean, I don't think it's any coincidence the year they raised the strike zone from the belt to the letters, that Koufax went from 1962 numbers to 1963 numbers. A great pitcher, but there were some things that he had at his benefit.
For me, he is obviously a borderline guy. He retired at 30. Not many hall of famers had a hall of fame career accomplished when they finished their age 30 season. Guys usually need to go on and compile some more years of some value to get there.
And honestly, would Koufax have gotten in if he hadn't been a bonus baby forced to develop at the big league level from the age of 19 where he got to at least pitch some innings? Today, if he was drafted, he would have sat in the minors for those first several years to develop, limiting his career innings even more.
Koufax is 16th in the Hall of Fame Monitor among pitchers
50th in standard
Black ink sees him 12th, while gray ink sees him 97th
He is obviously an exception in more ways than one.
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Hank O'day was inducted as an umpire, and Candy Cummings as a pioneer/executive. FWIW.
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
Koufax is 53rd in career rWAR among hall of famers
Which is mainly because he is 66th among hall of famers in innings pitched
Here are the guys behind him in career innings that started more games than they relieved:
Dizzy Dean
Candy Cummings
Hank O'Day
Two of these three are in as 19th century pitchers, and Dizzy arguably shouldn't be in at all, being a friend of Frisch though, he got in.
I mean, Koufax is all peak, I think that's obvious to everyone. There was no longevity because his career was cut short due to all of the arm injuries he had.
He also enjoyed an enlarged strike zone, pitching in one of the most pitcher friendly ball parks of all time, and did this with a raised mound.
Koufax, while obviously dominant, had a lot of things going for him to help him be that dominant.
I mean, I don't think it's any coincidence the year they raised the strike zone from the belt to the letters, that Koufax went from 1962 numbers to 1963 numbers. A great pitcher, but there were some things that he had at his benefit.
For me, he is obviously a borderline guy. He retired at 30. Not many hall of famers had a hall of fame career accomplished when they finished their age 30 season. Guys usually need to go on and compile some more years of some value to get there.
And honestly, would Koufax have gotten in if he hadn't been a bonus baby forced to develop at the big league level from the age of 19 where he got to at least pitch some innings? Today, if he was drafted, he would have sat in the minors for those first several years to develop, limiting his career innings even more.
Koufax is 16th in the Hall of Fame Monitor among pitchers
50th in standard
Black ink sees him 12th, while gray ink sees him 97th
He is obviously an exception in more ways than one.
Love this read as it further shows that Pedro is the GOAT!
Re: 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Hank O'day was inducted as an umpire, and Candy Cummings as a pioneer/executive. FWIW.
further pushing the point.
Fewest innings, even with great value, he didn't have exactly a long career.
