Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
The situation is even worse than it was
last year since the BBWAA failed to induct a single player.
It's only going to get worse. I'm not sure that even Maddux will get in this year.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Kind of jacked up with all these choices, literally 10+ players deserving of the HOF. All I hope is writers get flack for them being morality police, but extremely doubtful.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
There's ~16-18 guys on this ballot I'd put in.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dps
It's only going to get worse. I'm not sure that even Maddux will get in this year.
Maddux will absolutely get in. Everybody else... no idea.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
There's been a lot of talk about Jack Morris, but, I'm sorry, in my opinion, he just doesn't make the cut. I took a look at his numbers, and even on an individual season by season look, it's like, "where are the Hall of Fame level seasons?" What would you consider a Hall of Fame caliber season of his, 1983, (20-13, 3.34)? 1986 (21-8, 3.27)? I'll give you those, but that's about it. I just don't see the sustained level of dominance. Not only was his career ERA high (3.90) but he never even had one sub 3.00 ERA season.
I feel the same way about Tim Raines. He really only had 3 or 4 Hall of Fame-like years to me. They are great players for sure, but, at no time while I was watching them, did I think, "I'm watching a Hall of Famer here." But, hey, that's my own theory on the Baseball Hall of Fame. If you need a PowerPoint presentation to convince me a guy's a Hall-of-Famer, then he's not.
I think you just have to go with your gut feeling sometimes on these things sometimes. Like for example, I think Curt Schilling should go in eventually, maybe not first ballot but, to me, he was one of the best pitchers I ever saw even if his numbers were not there. Likewise, Keith Hernandez, the best (defensive) first baseman I ever saw.
That being said, I think, more often than not the writers get it right. The steroid thing definitely throws things out of whack and, I think, if these guys didn't assault the record books, it wouldn't have been too much of an issue. Y'know, when Canseco and McGwire were hitting 30-40 homers in the late 80s, there were whispers, and most people even outright knew that Canseco had used steroids, but, it wasn't until they got greedy and started making a mockery of the game that it got people upset. It's a shame they they couldn't have just kept it in check and not overdone it. I mean, who could take Sammy Sosa 3 straight 60 homer seasons seriously? I as a Met fan even I have to take a look at Piazza again. If nothing more than to say, yes, he was a great hitting catcher, but in a big time offensive era, was what he did that impressive?
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Agree with you on Morris. Disagree with you on Raines.
Based on single seasons from 1983-1987 Raines consistently was in the top 7 of position players in the league in WAR.
From 1982-1989 he was top 5 in combined WAR for all position players during this time. Mike Schmidt, Cal Ripken, Wade Boggs and Rickey Henderson were the only ones that rated higher. All of them in the HOF.
Players rated below him during that period are Robin Yount, Eddie Murray, Ozzie Smith, and Alan Trammell. All but one of these guys is in the HOF, (and I believe Trammell should be in too). He didn't have the pop that Rickey Henderson had in the leadoff position which I believe changes the perception on Raines for some stupid reason. If it wasn't for Henderson, I believe Raines would already be in, because he was easily one of the best leadoff hitters of all time.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
I agree with you on Trammell, maybe even Whitaker. To me, they were two of the best at their positions for more than a decade. They pass that "gut feeling" test I have. I sort of feel like you have to have either a ten year stretch of dominance or you fall into the "accumulator" category, where you rack up impressive career totals.
Raines was no doubt one of the best players in 1987 and a scary player offensively, but, I don't remember him keeping it up as long as Rickey Henderson. Like I said, in my opinion, Raines run from say, 85-87 was HOF caliber, the rest I don't know.
I'm not a big believer in just going by the numbers either. For example, I don't think Jeff Kent's a Hall of Famer, even though his offensive numbers are very good for a second baseman. He really was a guy without a position in a sense and he did become an adequate second baseman over time, but I don't think anybody when they are asked to name great second baseman would think of Jeff Kent right off the bat. Again, like Piazza, in an era when offensive numbers were off the charts, how impressive were they really?
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Actually just took a look at Raines again. His stolen base totals are insane, especially by today's standards, 78, 71, 90, 75, 70, 70. And from what I understand he didn't get caught much. And, you could honestly give him 1981, 83-87 as far as HOF caliber seasons (he made the All Star team every year). I think he could get in eventually. Not sure how many shots on the ballot he has left.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Interesting poll. Looks like I was the first to vote Jack Morris. Fred McGriff was bumped off the number 10 spot by Big Mac.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
16 players in my personal HoF. One lump of coal in every member of the BBWAA's stockings. My ten:
1) Bagwell
2) Bonds
3) Clemens
4) Glavine
5) Maddux
6) McGwire
7) Mussina
8) Raines
9) Schilling
10) Trammell
The other six: Biggio, 'Gar Martinez, Palmeiro, Piazza, Thomas, and Walker
I hope Walker, Martinez, Palmeiro, and Piazza don't fall off the ballot because of the idiot writers and their war on PEDs.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Maddux - he's at 100% in this poll and I'll keep him that way.
Bagwell - Somehow this dude gets underrated. He was a monster
Bonds - don't look at his giant head, or freakish muscles. Look at his numbers. By Zeus!
Clemens - 350 winz! lol yeah that's not why
Nomo - extra credit for his Japanese playing days.
Piazza - needs the votes more than some other similarly deserving players
Schilling - Randy Johnson's right-hand man in double-handedly denying the Yankees a ring.
Mussina - another guy who deserves it and needs votes
Thomas - ditto Mussina and Piazza
Raines - ditto Mussina, Piazza and Thomas.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
I hope Donnie Baseball doesn't get out this ballot and I think he might just avoid it. I am excited to see four players over 75% and I hope we can get 1-2 more. Really impressed by how many ballots have 10 people (thank you writers!) And for those who fill in blank ones, I hope they don't get votes next year. There's a ton of worthy people... even if they aren't 1st ballots.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Frank Thomas, Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux are inducted. Biggio unfortunately not.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Well, color me pleasantly surprised.
Too bad about Biggio, but he's at such a high percentage of the vote and has so many years of eligibility remaining that his selection is almost guaranteed at some point, probably next year.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
The situation is even worse than it was
last year since the BBWAA failed to induct a single player.
The above poll leaves off Jacque Jones since there are 36 names on the ballot and polls are limited to 35 options.
18 players are in my
personal Hall of Fame but with a ballot limited to 10 votes, these would be mine:
1) Jeff Bagwell
2) Craig Biggio
3) Barry Bonds
4) Roger Clemens
5) Tom Glavine
6) Greg Maddux
7) Mike Piazza
8) Tim Raines
9) Frank Thomas
10) Curt Schilling
The other 8 players are Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Mike Mussina, Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, Alan Trammell and Larry Walker.
I honestly haven't given this much time and effort reviewing stats and the like (as my vote doesn't count i don't see the need to waste the time) but my first thoughts on who would be a HOF'er from what I remember them doing are:
1) Bonds
2) Clemens
3) Maddux
4) Bagwell
5) Piazza
6) Thomas
7) Raines
8) Kent
9) Palmeiro
10) Biggio
W/O much research, from memory...i'm honestly on the fence about Biggio and I think persuaded by the recent talk in here and talk radio about him being one who should be in. When I think of HOF's I think he was borderline but there's very likely some valid statistical reasoning i'm overlooking since so many believe he's a no brainer. I guess Palmeiro is where I start to doubt candidacy. Others you've mentioned, Glavine/Edgar/McGwire are close to me but not people I thought of as HOF's when they played and Schilling/Mussina/Sosa/Trammell/Walker, from memory and perception (possibly false) I don't think of as HOF's period. Hall of fame to me isn't Hall of very good but rather Hall of great. Interesting to me is that I think of Kent as having a HOF career but not Biggiio, yet from everyone liking Biggio more I'd venture a guess his overall stats were better.
The fact Palmeiro is now off future ballots is a travesty.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
ok i looked at both bigs and kent...and as suspected, Bigs had a better career and is far more worthy than Kent and a no brainer IMO. In light of, i'd swap Bigs with Kent on my list, maybe put him just above Raines and drop Kent into the fringe category leaving me with a list of 9.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Alot of people taking issue with Ken Gurnick:
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/stor...ck-morris-vote
Personally I have less an issue with him putting nobody who played in the "steroid era" on than those who picked and chose who was dirty and who wasn't. I listened to an interview he gave on XM and found him to be very honest and consistent. I don't agree with his stance on voting, but he's not saying he thinks Maddux did roids he's saying that he thinks the whole era tainted and doesn't see how he can pick and choose who did and who didn't thus he'll choose none. He rightfully explains the players union involvement and while he didn't go into it, wasn't Glavine significfantly involved with the players union and fighting against testing for PEDs? Personally I don't think any of that should matter to the HOF vote, the era was what it was...but certainly the mlbpa's involvement is at least a logical link to hold all players somewhat accountable and complicit. I think his choice of Morris is suspect. I believe he didn't want to be a reason Morris didn't reach minimum quota and thus pu$$ied out on his stance and gave him a vote. Morris had I think it was 70+ wins AFTER the time period in which Gurnick stated he believed the "era" began. He was consistent up until that point IMO. I guess my bigger issue is guys that will choose Maddux/Glavine and not Clemens or Bagwell, etc.
Gurnick has stated he will abstain from any future votes, which is the right thing to do and should've been done prior to this.
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
So I'm late to join and place my vote
My 10
1. Biggio
2. Bagwell
3. Bonds
4. Clemens
5. Glavine
6. Maddux
7. Mussina
8. Raines
9. Schilling
10. Thomas
Martinez, Walker, Trammell would also get votes from me if over 10 were allowed (with Kent on the borderline that I haven't made a choice on yet).
EDIT: I meant to vote for Bagwell, but Walker got my selection above in the ballot....whoops
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dickay
Alot of people taking issue with Ken Gurnick:
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/stor...ck-morris-vote
Personally I have less an issue with him putting nobody who played in the "steroid era" on than those who picked and chose who was dirty and who wasn't. I listened to an interview he gave on XM and found him to be very honest and consistent. I don't agree with his stance on voting, but he's not saying he thinks Maddux did roids he's saying that he thinks the whole era tainted and doesn't see how he can pick and choose who did and who didn't thus he'll choose none. He rightfully explains the players union involvement and while he didn't go into it, wasn't Glavine significfantly involved with the players union and fighting against testing for PEDs? Personally I don't think any of that should matter to the HOF vote, the era was what it was...but certainly the mlbpa's involvement is at least a logical link to hold all players somewhat accountable and complicit. I think his choice of Morris is suspect. I believe he didn't want to be a reason Morris didn't reach minimum quota and thus pu$$ied out on his stance and gave him a vote. Morris had I think it was 70+ wins AFTER the time period in which Gurnick stated he believed the "era" began. He was consistent up until that point IMO. I guess my bigger issue is guys that will choose Maddux/Glavine and not Clemens or Bagwell, etc.
Gurnick has stated he will abstain from any future votes, which is the right thing to do and should've been done prior to this.
He also said on the radio he didn't want to pick Maddux because he 'picked on him'
whaaaa?
And didn't Morris technically pitch in the steroid era?
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
He also said on the radio he didn't want to pick Maddux because he 'picked on him'
whaaaa?
And didn't Morris technically pitch in the steroid era?
i didn't hear or don't understand your comments that he "picked on him"? I heard him say more than once that he feels Maddux is a HOF'er and was in no way singling him out.
As to Morris, yes according to where most put a start to the "era". As I said in the post you quoted, Morris had some 70+ wins AFTER Gurnick said the steroid era began. Gurnick said that he voted for Morris based upon his performance prior to the era's beginning but thats the one area where I feel he's inconsistent and call bullsh!t. I think he didn't want to see Morris drop from the ballot so gave him a vote personally. Why not just be honest about it though?
Re: 2014 Hall of Fame Ballot
Morris is dropping from the ballot anyway--this was his 15th and final year of eligibility with the BBWAA.
