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I am glad you put Martinez in. Just looking at his Baseball Reference Page, it is amazing how good of a hitter he was. I wish I saw more games because he is one of those once in a generation type of player when it comes to talent vs. heart. Pete Rose comes to mind as another. Ichiro once said there was no player who prepared more for games than Edgar. Crazy that he was the best hitter on the Mariners during the nintes not Griffey (allthou griffey offered more value because of defense)
The new players on the 2013 ballot that have made my personal Hall of Fame:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Craig Biggio, 2B, Houston Astros
Barry Bonds, LF, San Francisco Giants
Roger Clemens, SP, Boston Red Sox
Mike Piazza, C, New York Mets
Curt Schilling, SP, Philadelphia Phillies
Sammy Sosa, RF, Chicago Cubs
Still holding out on Dwight Evans huh?
I haven't gone back and reassessed any former players. As I did say previously, Evans was right on the cusp when I originally made this.Quote:
Originally Posted by acetoolguy
I appreciate the request, but I have to decline the offer of induction into your HOF.
You didn't realize you're already in the HOF of Douchenozzles?Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Who cares.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
As far as the real HOF goes, it's criminal that Jim Rice is in and Evans isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by acetoolguy
The new players on the 2014 ballot that have made my personal Hall of Fame:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas
Mike Mussina
Jeff Kent
The new players on the 2015 ballot that have made my personal Hall of Fame:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Gary Sheffield
Johnson becomes the first player to be "inducted" with an Arizona Diamondbacks cap, and Sheffield the first with a Miami Marlins cap.
The only way Sheffield belongs in the HOF is if he buys a ticket.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
140 OPS+ in nearly 11,000 PA is Hall-worthy by any definition. The only argument against him is PEDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleWie
He has admitted to intentionally making errors because he wanted out of Milwaukee. There should be no place in the HOF for a player who tries to make his team lose on purpose. PED's I can forgive at least he is doing it to put up better numbers which in turn helps the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I don't see how a guy who deliberately sabotaged his own team can be allowed on the HOF.
I wouldn't let some idiotic actions someone took in their late teens/early 20s invalidate the other 20ish years of their career.
I disagree. But it doesn't matter anyway because with the intentionally sabotaging of games, admitted PED use, racist comments and just being a douche in general his whole career, it's safe to say he'll never get in. I'll shed no tears for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Man, if racist comments and being a douche actually were disqualifiers for the HoF, who would be left?Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleWie
We all know the reason he won't get in is PED's. But even with out the PED's he would have a long wait to get in. There is a reason he played for so many teams. He wasn't just your run of the mill douche he is probably the biggest douche to play in MLB in decades. Even bigger than Bonds or Clemens. From racist comments about Jewish people & Latinos to intentionally committing errors to ripping teammates this guy has done it all. I get there were a lot of racist douche bags voted in in the early days but for modern era douches, he is one of a kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Sheffield is lucky he played the majority of his career before social media and the 24 hour news cycle. Guaranteed he would have been fined and suspended several times over in today's MLB.
and....his defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
A flaw in his game is not an argument against his Hall worthiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
They can be disqualifiers:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
From the BBWAA voting criteria:
A voter can certainly refuse to vote for said player because of his "doucheness"Quote:
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
Sure it is, if the flaw was significant enough.Quote:
A flaw in his game is not an argument against his Hall worthiness.
All this aside...Sheffield is most certainly a HOFer based solely on his play. At his best, he was one of the best players I've ever seen play the game. He was also one of the biggest "douches" to play the game so I wouldn't hold it against a writer if they didn't vote for him on that accord. Surely there may be bigger jackasses in the HOF, but that shouldn't be the gauge for current voters to cast votes by.
This has literally never disqualified any otherwise qualified player, except MAYBE Dick Allen.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Ok, then an argument must be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Theres been players who were not voted for by some writers along those lines...at least initially, then got in later. Writers may somehow feel that excluding them from initial ballots is a way of "getting back at them". Jim Rice comes to mind. I know many don't feel he's HOF worthy, but it took him years to get in and his numbers didn't change. He was tough with the media and the writers held it against him, years later changing their votes or other writers took their place and let him in. He was "disqualified", if thats the term of choice", for many of those years based largely upon items unrelated to baseball. This is not uncommon HGM.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Wasn't Sheffield arguably a more valuable player while with the LA Dodgers?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
only 3.5 seasons though.....tough one. I realize with Miami he was injured for a good deal of his time there as well and it wasn't much more. Weird for such a talent to have bounced around so much spending such little time in one place. In his case I really don't think anyone would argue what hat he wore...going with the Greg Maddux no team approach makes most sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by actionjackson
if its just productivity though and not longevity, w/o question it should be LAD.
I don't think it's weird that he bounced around so much. He was from most accounts a complete a-hole. At least we know he won't be alone in that regard in the HoF.
I do not believe that at all, nor have I ever heard such, regarding why it took Jim Rice so long to get in. It took Jim Rice so long because he doesn't actually have a Hall of Fame case and it required Boston writers drumming up support and backwards old-timers wanting to take jabs at sabermetric thought and the high offense era of the 90s. That's how a lot of HoF voting goes. It takes most players years to get in, for various reasons. I've never heard of any case of a player taking a while to get in due to writers holding non-baseball things against that player. I don't buy for a second that a ton of writers thought Rice was deserving but waited a decade to vote for him because he was mean to them once.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionjackson
I use a mix of factors, including both productivity and longevity, as well as any particular noteworthy feats of a player, to pick what "hat" they get. Basically, it boils down to what team I think most of a player's HoF case was built during. I think the "Greg Maddux no team approach" is pretty silly - well, at least for Greg Maddux. I wish to assign every player a "hat", though Sheffield's case is, I think, the toughest I've had so far, and would certainly be a good candidate for the "blank hat" treatment IRL. An argument could be made for either LAD or MIA. I don't know the particulars of the injuries Sheffield faced in 94 and 95, but I gave a slight boost in my value estimates due to those being shortened seasons, which makes the overall value between those two stints pretty close, so I gave the edge to Miami because he spent slightly more time there.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
surprised you never heard of it, it was frequently discussed as a reason he wasn't voted in during his time on the ballot falling short. Heres the wiki, which admittedly isn't a great source but if wiki mentions it than there's likely some fire behind the smoke:Quote:
I do not believe that at all, nor have I ever heard such, regarding why it took Jim Rice so long to get in. It took Jim Rice so long because he doesn't actually have a Hall of Fame case and it required Boston writers drumming up support and backwards old-timers wanting to take jabs at sabermetric thought and the high offense era of the 90s. That's how a lot of HoF voting goes. It takes most players years to get in, for various reasons. I've never heard of any case of a player taking a while to get in due to writers holding non-baseball things against that player. I don't buy for a second that a ton of writers thought Rice was deserving but waited a decade to vote for him because he was mean to them once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rice
wiki's reference: http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...l_a_tough_out/Quote:
Rice's delay in being elected to the Hall of Fame stemmed in part from more current statistical analysis of player performance. This analysis suggested that Rice's HOF credentials might have been more questionable than they were considered during his career.[17] The delay may also have been related to his often difficult relationship with the media during his playing career, many of whom are still voting members of the BBWAA, and his career fading relatively early - he last played in the major leagues at the age of 36.[18]
Finally one last article discussing it;Quote:
Bill Madden of the New York Daily News, a baseball writer since 1972, does not vote for Rice. Asked if Rice's nasty relationship with the writers had anything to do with his vote, Madden said, ''Not with me. I voted for Eddie Murray, and nobody was more rude to me than him. I would hate to think that's the reason people don't vote for Jim Rice."
Back in Rice's home state of South Carolina, reporter Bob Gillespie of The State, said, ''Most people here say, 'He didn't get along with writers, so people are taking it out on him.' "
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/27/sp...ll/27RICE.html
Another commonly mentioned to have been held out because of his attitude towards writers is one you put into your HOF, Joe Medwick.
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/8fed3607
Finally you mentioned Dick Allen, another commonly associated with being held out because of his personality.Quote:
After waiting impatiently for 20 years, Medwick was elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1968. “It was like a 20-year slump,” he said the day after his election. His long wait may have been caused by the antagonism felt toward him by many baseball writers, whom he often dismissed rudely when they approached him for interviews. By 1968 this animosity had been largely forgotten and he received votes from 84.8 percent of the writers casting ballots.
Can you show me a writer who has stated that he withheld a vote from a player for multiple years, that he thought was otherwise qualified, because of the player's personality?
I don't buy that there is a vast contingent of writers that refuse to vote for multiple years for players they think belong in the Hall and then at some point decide to say yes.
Are there a couple individual writers that don't vote for people they don't like? Yeah, but I think generally those writers stick with that vote, and even if sometimes they change it, I don't think it's such a widespread phenomenon that it can account for 50% jumps over the course of a decade.
Absent the steroid issue (both on Sheffield's personal level, as well as ballot wide - meaning no backlog of overqualified players), I think Sheffield would likely have taken 4-6 years to get in.
u said you hadn't heard of it, I was just showing you that it's actually a pretty common theory and whether it happens or not, it is permissible under the guidelines set forth by the BBWAA. Three of the five listed voting criteria are things that have little to do with what actually took place on the field and more to do with the personality/makeup of the player. So being douche certainly can be a disqualifyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Ok well, even if Jim Rice and Joe Medwick waiting years before election due to a large segment of writers withholding votes on the basis of their personality was true, it was NOT a disqualifier - it just caused a delay in election.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Dick Allen is the only case where an argument can be made that his personality actually held him out of the Hall, but even that case is relatively weak given that Allen is borderline as it is and has various statistical issues working against his already borderline record.
What about Albert Belle? He compares very similar to Dick Allen. I know he is prolly not a HOFer but I think he is very very close. He got almost no consideration. You would have thought he would have at least hung around the ballot for awhile. I'm sure him being a douche was why he got almost no votes.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
ugh, ok Mr. Semantics. It's a disqualifier until it isn't lmao. You win. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
btw, "disqualified" was your word in response to me saying that "doucheness" can be reason for a writer not to vote for said person. If you literally meant that the person never got into the HOF, than you are arguing something nobody ever said.
Interesting - I disappear for almost 3 years, and when I come back the 2 of you are still bitching at each other. Good to see some things don't change.
Belle had an extremely short career. He was a bat-only player without any milestone counting stats or major awards or records. I wouldn't expect him to get much support regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleWie
Look at Ralph Kiner for a player with a very similar overall statistical profile... except Kiner actually had records, a higher peak, and a lot more black ink.... plus was a popular announcer and had a sterling reputation. He started off with basically no support and it took him nearly the full 15 years on the ballot to get elected. Belle had no shot at election, even if he was the world's nicest guy to the media.
My original statement was that it has never disqualified somebody from the Hall of Fame, except arguably Dick Allen. It's beyond clear that I'm saying it has never kept anyone out of the Hall of Fame, not that it has never been the reason an individual writer didn't vote for a player.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Yes, individual writers make individual votes with stupid reasoning like "This guy's personality sucked." My argument is, and has been, that this is not a large enough contingent of writers to have a meaningful effect on the voting, and that on the overall scale of BBWAA voting, players have been voted in or held out only on the basis of their playing career, and never on the basis of their personality or the way they acted.
He made the Hall as a manager, not a player, but his being considered a douche is probably what made Durocher a posthumous selection.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
With a lot of extra time while I wait to start rosters, I'm going to start going year by year and assembling "All Star teams," essentially the top 9-10% of players in each league, but broken down by position (ie. top 3 catchers, top 3 first basemen, top 8 pitchers, etc.). The numbers will adjust as I go back through time with less teams. Whenever far off in the future that I finish this project, I'll look through the numbers to see if I missed any particularly outstanding players when I first went through and picked my Hall of Fame. Maybe a player was underrated by overall WAR, for example, but was an "All Star" at his position 12 times - I think there's merit to rewarding such a player.
So, I've gone through and picked All Star teams for each year in history, as well as MVPs, Cy Youngs, and the best player at each position each year. The goal of this is to reassess and see if I missed any players that should be in my personal Hall, as well as potentially catch any players that were "inducted" but shouldn't have been (although, to stick with the spirit of the real HoF, any "mistakes" will stay "inducted.").
My yearly All Star teams were made up of roughly 2-2.5 players per team in each league, and I tried to get a mix of 2-3 players per position, with a couple additional pitchers. Each year differed, of course, as sometimes there were, for example 4-5 great shortstops, but only 1-2 great catchers. My only hard and fast rule was that there must be at least 1 player for each position. I think I broke this rule once, for some year in the early 1900's or late 1800's (I forget which), where there were a bunch of excellent players that played mostly in left and center field, but do to the fluidity of outfielders at the time and how they often patrolled the various spots, nobody that performed at even a decent level while playing most of their games in RF.
First step was to see how the average Hall of Famer at each position checks out. I've rounded numbers in most cases. Note that Negro Leaguers were excluded from these averages.
Catchers appeared in an average of 10 All Star games, while being the top catcher in their league an average of 6.5 times throughout their career. Catcher MVPs are relatively rare, with HoF catchers being named MVP an average of 0.25 times throughout history.
First basemen appeared in an average of 11 All Star games, while being the best at their position an average of 5.25 times. They earned an average of 0.8 MVPs in their career.
Second basemen appeared in an average of 11 All Star games, and were the best at their position an average of 6.7 times. The average HoF second basemen won 1 MVP in their career.
Third basemen appeared in an average of 9.75 All Star games, which is the lowest average of all the positions besides pitcher. They also earned the top spot at their position an average of just 5.25 times in their career, tying with first basemen for the fewest in that category. They earned the MVP 0.5 times in their career.
Shortstops appeared in an average of 10.7 All Star games, and were the best at their position 5.6 times. Shortstops earned the MVP an average of 0.9 times in their career.
Left fielders made 10.4 All Star games, and took the top spot at their position 6 times in their career. They earned an average of 1.29 MVP awards.
Center fielders hold the highest averages across the board (in no small part due to the trio of Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays). They appeared in 11.7 All Star games, were the best at their position 6.9 times, and averaged 1.62 MVPs in their career.
Right fielders made an average of 11 All Star appearances, while playing at the highest level at their position 5.45 times. They earned 0.95 MVPs in their career.
A variety of factors lead to starting pitchers earning an average of just 8 All Star appearances in their careers (shorter careers, more competition for few AS spots, etc.). They did, however, earn an average of 1.04 MVPs in their career, although this number is surely boosted by the 19th century pitchers which amassed more value than position players due to the nature of the game in that time. Starting pitchers in the Hall earned an average of 2.5 Cy Young awards in their careers.
With only 2 relievers and 2 designated hitters in the Hall, their average numbers are somewhat irrelevant. As I didn't separate starters and relievers when it came to the All Star games, Hoyt Wilhelm and Goose Gossage each made just 1 appearance each. Hoyt Wilhelm won 1 Cy Young award, while Gossage did not win any. As for designated hitters, Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez earned 9 and 11 All Star appearances, respectively. Thomas was the best at his position 7 times, while Edgar was the best at his 6 times. Frank Thomas won 1 MVP award, while Edgar did not win any.
Now, to review all the players.
Excellent stuff as usual HGM. Looking forward to the rest of this series. :)
Here is a list of players whom fall just shy of my standards. For some, I've actually yet to make up my mind, so they all deserve further consideration. As of now, they're on the outside looking in, but I could be convinced on any of them:
C Ernie Lombardi, C Bill Freehan, C Wally Schang, 1B Norm Cash, 1B Ed Konetchy, 1B Jack Fournier, 2B Larry Doyle, 2B Nellie Fox, 2B Willie Randolph, 3B Ron Cey, 3B Larry Gardner, 3B Sal Bando, 3B Robin Ventura, 3B Pie Traynor, SS Joe Tinker, SS Luis Aparicio, SS Dave Concepcion, SS Travis Jackson, SS Dave Bancroft, SS Bert Campaneris, LF Bobby Veach, LF Jimmy Sheckard, CF Andre Dawson, CF Kenny Lofton, CF Bernie Williams, CF Edd Roush, CF Hack Wilson, CF Lip Pike, RF Mike Tiernan, RF Bobby Bonds, RF Jack Clark, SP Rick Reuschel, SP Kevin Appier, SP David Cone, SP Wes Ferrell
The following players have been inducted into HoustonGM's Personal Hall of Fame (consider these late additions like a Veteran's Committee selection!)
C Roger Bresnahan - A consistent All Star caliber player for a decade. He falls just shy off the HoF average for his position. He had an excellent bat (126 OPS+) and was versatile on the field. He'll be inducted with a San Francisco Giants cap.
1B Bill Terry - Overlooked the first time around. Terry had a somewhat short career, so he falls shy of the HoF average for All Star appearances at 1B, but he beats the HoF average by being the best at his position 6 times. He's an excellent "prime" candidate, as he was a consistent force from the mid 1920's to the mid 1930's, peaking as the NL MVP in 1931. Like Bresnahan, Terry will be inducted with a San Francisco Giants cap.
1B Joe Start - Start was one of the premier players of the early days of baseball. His overall WAR total of 32.2 seems very low for the Hall, but it's held down by the fact that he played during an era with a much shorter schedule. Normalized for a 162 game schedule, he produced roughly 70 WAR for his career. He played for the Providence Grays for most of his peak, so that's the hat he'll wear.
2B Fred Dunlap - Another 19th century star, Dunlap had an incredible peak as the clear best second basemen in the league for 7 years, including a sublime 1884 in the Union Association, which, while admittedly lesser competition, is still considered a major league. He provided a smattering of value outside of his prime, so I have him as deserving of induction. He came up with the Cleveland Blues organization, and amassed the most value with them, despite bouncing around for most of his career. That is the cap he'll wear.
3B Tommy Leach - Leach is an interesting case. He's sort of a "super utility" player, splitting his playing time at third base and all throughout the outfield, while also filling in up the middle. His career arc is very disjointed, with multiple highs and lows. I find the overall package worthy of a spot in the Hall. He made 9 All Star games (5 at 3B and 4 in CF) and was the best at his position 8 times (4 times at each at both his primary positions). He'll wear a Pittsburgh Pirates hat.
3B Stan Hack - It seems I may have underrated third basemen. From 1935 to 1945, Stan Hack was the clear top third basemen in the National League. Stan played his entire career for the Chicago Cubs.
3B Heinie Groh - Groh's excellence spanned a different pair of half-decades than Stan Hack. From 1915 to 1924, Groh was the top NL third basemen 7 times, and even tacked on a great year at 2B in 1914 to start this span. Groh will represent the Cincinnati Reds in the Hall.
SS Joe Sewell - With 10 outstanding years as the best player at his position, Sewell trumps the average HoF shortstop, so he surely belongs beside them. He had a truly legendary ability to put the ball in play. From his age 26 season to the end of his career, he never had a single season in which he struck out even 10 times. A shortstop for the majority of his career, he put up some excellent seasons even after sliding over to the hot corner. Sewell will wear a Cleveland Indians cap.
LF Pete Browning - Browning was the premier slugger of the American Association. He earned three batting titles and had a career 163 OPS+. He made 7 All Star appearances and was the best at his position 5 times. His career lasted only about a decade, but his bat was so incredible that it was a mistake to leave him out of the Hall. He'll wear a Louisville Colonels hat.
LF Charley Jones - Another 19th century player. Like Browning, he was an outstanding slugger. Splitting his career between the early National League and the American Association, Jones had a career OPS+ of 150. He has a similar HoF case to players like Ralph Kiner - a decade long prime featuring plenty of bat. He'll wear a Cincinnati Reds cap in the Hall.
CF Max Carey - An outstanding fielder and baserunner with a long career, I underrated Carey my first time through. With 10 All Star seasons, and 5 as the best center fielder in the NL, Carey is deserving of his spot in the Hall. It's a Pittsburgh Pirates cap for him.
CF Earl Averill - Another center fielder I underrated. He was the top AL center fielder in the 1930's. He'll wear a Cleveland Indians cap.
RF Reggie Smith - Despite some in-season durability issues, Smith's combination of a potent bat and plus glove earn him a spot in my Hall of Fame. An 8 time All Star, he was also the best in the league at his position 6 times. He'll wear a Boston Red Sox hat.
RF Dwight Evans - Another from the Boston Red Sox, I've come around on his HoF case. I have him as a 10 time All Star, which seems to be a solid in/out line when it comes to the HoF. He was also the best at his position 4 times, and was the 1981 AL MVP.
SP Billy Pierce - A 7 time All Star who twice was the best pitcher in his league, Pierce fits exactly at my Hall average. A deserving candidate that I had overlooked my first time through. He'll wear a Chicago White Sox cap.
SP Dave Stieb - The true best pitcher of the 1980's, despite how many sportswriters fawn over Jack Morris. I have him earning 7 All Star spots while taking home 4 Cy Young awards. No other player with 4 Cy Young awards wasn't inducted. He'll wear a Toronto Blue Jays cap.
SP Al Spalding - Despite a mere 8 year career, Al Spalding was THE player of the National Association, taking home 4 MVP awards on the back of his outstanding pitcher plus offensive prowess. A true two way player, Spalding earns his spot in my Hall on the back of his playing ability (whereas his work as a pioneer/executive is what earned him his spot in the real Hall). He'll wear a Boston Red Stockings cap.
With these 17 players, my Hall now has 241 inductees, just 3 shy of the Cooperstown total.
First of all congratulations on this very well balanced HoF. I'm sure a lot of effort went into it. At least 20 players at each position, almost 65 SP, 2 RP, and 2 DH. That is spectacular balance. I assume Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson are not in because of the ineligibility thing. I know they're in the Hall of Merit, but I guess you decided to cut it down to players who could've been voted into the real life HoF.
I've gotta ask about/stump for Rick Reuschel, Kenny Lofton (asked about earlier in the thread I know, but I think he belongs), Luis Tiant, David Cone, Vic Willis, Buddy Bell, Willie Randolph, Andre Dawson, Bret Saberhagen, Red Faber, Sal Bando, Kevin Appier, Wes Ferrell, and Bobby Bonds. Your HoF, your blood, sweat, and toil, but these are guys that I think are worthy. How close were they, and will you re-visit them again? Thanks again for all you do around here, even if this place isn't quite as busy as it once was.