HoustonGM's Personal Hall of Fame

Now that I have finished my positional rankings, I've assembled my Hall of Fame. For the Negro Leaguers, I mostly deferred to the assessment of the Hall of Merit. First is a list of players by position and following that is a list of players by franchise (determined by me, generally the franchise the player provided the most value too).

My Hall of Fame consists of 250 players. The real Hall has 255 players.

HGM's Hall of Fame Inductees

Catcher (21): Johnny Bench, Charlie Bennett, Yogi Berra, Roger Bresnahan, Roy Campanella, Gary Carter, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing, Carlton Fisk, Josh Gibson, Gabby Hartnett, Biz Mackey, Cal McVey, Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Louis Santop, Ted Simmons, Joe Torre, Quincy Trouppe, Deacon White

First Base (21): Cap Anson, Jeff Bagwell, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Keith Hernandez, Harmon Killebrew, Buck Leonard, Willie McCovey, Mark McGwire, Johnny Mize, Eddie Murray, Rafael Palmeiro, Joe Start, George Sisler, Mule Suttles, Bill Terry, Jim Thome

Second Base (23): Roberto Alomar, Ross Barnes, Craig Biggio, Rod Carew, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Bobby Doerr, Fred Dunlap, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Bobby Grich, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby, Jeff Kent, Nap Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan, Hardy Richardson, Jackie Robinson, Ryne Sandberg, Lou Whitaker

Third Base (23): Dick Allen, Frank Baker, John Beckwith, Wade Boggs, Ken Boyer, George Brett, Jimmy Collins, Darrell Evans, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Chipper Jones, Tommy Leach, Eddie Mathews, John McGraw, Paul Molitor, Graig Nettles, Brooks Robinson, Scott Rolen, Ron Santo, Mike Schmidt, Ezra Sutton, Ned Williamson, Jud Wilson

Shortstop (23): Luke Appling, Ernie Banks, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Home Run Johnson, Barry Larkin, John Henry Lloyd, Pee Wee Reese, Cal Ripken, Joe Sewell, Ozzie Smith, Alan Trammell, Arky Vaughan, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Monte Ward, Willie Wells, George Wright, Robin Yount

Left Field (25): Barry Bonds, Pete Browning, Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Rickey Henderson, Monte Irvin, Charley Jones, Charlie Keller, Joe Kelley, Ralph Kiner, Sherry Magee, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Stan Musial, Tim Raines, Manny Ramirez, Al Simmons, Willie Stargell, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat, Billy Williams, Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski

Center Field (22): Richie Ashburn, Earl Averill, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston, Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Larry Doby, Jim Edmonds, George Gore, Ken Griffey, Jr., Billy Hamilton, Pete Hill, Paul Hines, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Alejandro Oms, Jim O'Rourke, Duke Snider, Tris Speaker, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente, Jim Wynn

Right Field (23): Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Sam Crawford, Dwight Evans, Elmer Flick, Vladimir Guerrero, Tony Gwynn, Harry Heilmann, Reggie Jackson, Al Kaline, Willie Keeler, King Kelly, Mel Ott, Frank Robinson, Babe Ruth, Gary Sheffield, Enos Slaughter, Reggie Smith, Sammy Sosa, Sam Thompson, Larry Walker, Paul Waner, Dave Winfield

Designated Hitter (2): Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas

Starting Pitcher (65): Pete Alexander, Bert Blyleven, Kevin Brown, Mordecai Brown, Ray Brown, Jim Bunning, Steve Carlton, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Clemens, Stan Coveleski, Martin Dihigo, Don Drysdale, Dennis Eckersley, Red Faber, Bob Feller, Whitey Ford, Rube Foster, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Bob Gibson, Tom Glavine, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbell, Fergie Jenkins, Randy Johnson, Walter Johnson, Tim Keefe, Sandy Koufax, Ted Lyons, Greg Maddux, Juan Marichal, Pedro Martinez, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jose Mendez, Mike Mussina, Hal Newhouser, Kid Nichols, Phil Niekro, Satchel Paige, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Billy Pierce, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Robin Roberts, Bullet Joe Rogan, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Curt Schilling, John Smoltz, Warren Spahn, Al Spalding, Dave Stieb, Don Sutton, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Smokey Joe Williams, Early Wynn, Cy Young

Relief Pitcher (2): Rich Gossage, Hoyt Wilhelm

By Franchise

1. San Francisco Giants - 20 - Barry Bonds, Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Darrell Evans, Buck Ewing, Carl Hubbell, Tim Keefe, Jeff Kent, Juan Marichal, Christy Mathewson, Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Joe McGinnity, Jim O'Rourke, Mel Ott, Gaylord Perry, Amos Rusie, Bill Terry, Monte Ward
2T. Chicago Cubs - 16 - Cap Anson, Ernie Banks, Mordecai Brown, Bill Dahlen, George Gore, Clark Griffith, Stan Hack, Gabby Hartnett, Billy Herman, Fergie Jenkins, King Kelly, Ryne Sandberg, Ron Santo, Sammy Sosa, Billy Williams, Ned Williamson
2T. Atlanta Braves - 16 - Hank Aaron, Ross Barnes, John Clarkson, Tom Glavine, Chipper Jones, Greg Maddux, Eddie Mathews, Cal McVey, Kid Nichols, Phil Niekro, John Smoltz, Warren Spahn, Al Spalding, Ezra Sutton, Joe Torre, George Wright
4T. St. Louis Cardinals - 13 - Ken Boyer, Bob Caruthers, Jim Edmonds, Frankie Frisch, Bob Gibson, Keith Hernandez, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Medwick, Johnny Mize, Stan Musial, Ted Simmons, Enos Slaughter, Ozzie Smith
4T. Philadelphia Phillies - 13 - Pete Alexander, Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn, Jim Bunning, Steve Carlton, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Robin Roberts, Scott Rolen, Curt Schilling, Mike Schmidt, Sam Thompson
6. New York Yankees - 12 - Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey, Joe DiMaggio, Whitey Ford, Lou Gehrig, Joe Gordon, Rich Gossage, Charlie Keller, Mickey Mantle, Graig Nettles, Red Ruffing, Babe Ruth
7T. Oakland Athletics - 11 - Frank Baker, Mickey Cochrane, Dennis Eckersley, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove, Rickey Henderson, Reggie Jackson, Mark McGwire, Eddie Plank, Al Simmons, Rube Waddell
7T. Boston Red Sox - 11 - Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Jimmy Collins, Bobby Doerr, Dwight Evans, Carlton Fisk, Pedro Martinez, Manny Ramirez, Reggie Smith, Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski
7T. Cleveland Indians - 11 - Lou Boudreau, Stan Coveleski, Larry Doby, Earl Averill, Bob Feller, Elmer Flick, Nap Lajoie, Joe Sewell, Tris Speaker, Jim Thome, Early Wynn
10T. Los Angeles Dodgers - 10 - Kevin Brown, Roy Campanella, Don Drysdale, Sandy Koufax, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Duke Snider, Don Sutton, Dazzy Vance, Zack Wheat
10T. Pittsburgh Pirates - 10 - Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Roberto Clemente, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Leach, Willie Stargell, Arky Vaughan, Honus Wagner, Paul Waner
12T. Detroit Tigers - 9 - Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Charlie Gehringer, Hank Greenberg, Harry Heilmann, Al Kaline, Hal Newhouser, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker
12T. Chicago White Sox - 9 - Luke Appling, Eddie Collins, Red Faber, Ted Lyons, Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, Frank Thomas, Ed Walsh, Hoyt Wilhelm
14T. Cincinnati Reds - 7 - Johnny Bench, Heinie Groh, Charley Jones, Barry Larkin, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan, Frank Robinson
14T. Baltimore Orioles (AL) - 7 - Eddie Murray, Mike Mussina, Jim Palmer, Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
16. Minnesota Twins - 6 - Bert Blyleven, Rod Carew, Joe Cronin, Goose Goslin, Walter Johnson, Harmon Killebrew
17T. Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 4 - Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, John McGraw
17T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 - Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
19T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - Willie Foster, Pete Hill, Cristobal Torriente
19T. Cleveland Spiders - 3 - Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Cy Young
19T. Homestead Grays - 3 - Ray Brown, Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard
19T. Houston Astros - 3 - Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Jim Wynn
19T. Providence Grays - 3 - Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
19T. Washington Nationals - 3 - Gary Carter, Vladimir Guerrero, Tim Raines
25T. Baltimore Black Sox - 2 - John Beckwith, Jud Wilson
25T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 - Home Run Johnson, Louis Santop
25T. Los Angeles Angels - 2 - Bobby Grich, Nolan Ryan
25T. Milwaukee Brewers - 2 - Paul Molitor, Robin Yount
25T. New York Lincoln Giants - 2 - John Henry Lloyd, Smokey Joe Williams
25T. San Diego Padres - 2 - Tony Gwynn, Dave Winfield
25T. St. Louis Stars - 2 - Mule Suttles, Willie Wells
25T. New York Mets - 2 - Mike Piazza, Tom Seaver
25T. Cleveland Blues - 2 - Fred Dunlap, Jack Glasscock
25T. Toronto Blue Jays - 2 - Roberto Alomar, Dave Stieb
25T. Seattle Mariners - 2 - Ken Griffey, Jr., Edgar Martinez
25T. Texas Rangers - 1 - Rafael Palmeiro
37T. Almendares Blues - 1 - Jose Mendez
37T. Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 - Quincy Trouppe
37T. Colorado Rockies - 1 - Larry Walker
37T. Cuban Giants - 1 - Frank Grant
37T. Cuban Stars East - 1 - Alejandro Oms
37T. Detroit Stars - 1 - Turkey Stearnes
37T. Detroit Wolverines - 1 - Charlie Bennett
37T. Habana Reds - 1 - Martin Dihigo
37T. Hilldale Daisies - 1 - Biz Mackey
37T. Indianapolis ABC's - 1 - Oscar Charleston
37T. Kansas City Monarchs - 1 - Bullet Joe Rogan
37T. Kansas City Royals - 1 - George Brett
37T. Newark Eagles - 1 - Monte Irvin
37T. Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 - Harry Stovey
37T. Philadelphia Giants - 1 - Rube Foster
37T. Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 - Satchel Paige
37T. Arizona Diamondbacks - 1 - Randy Johnson
37T. Miami Marlins - 1 - Gary Sheffield
36T. Louisville Colonels - 1 - Pete Browning

How many players are in the real HOF?

/too lazy to look

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Originally Posted by ragecage

How many players are in the real HOF?

/too lazy to look

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Thanks for reminding me. I forgot to mention that, adding it.

smiles

Awesome work.

awesome stuff...couple of questions for you though...none of which are meant to be a critique, just curious as to what your thought process is/was on some of this.

1. You have Eckersley as a starting pitcher, but with an A's hat. I certainly remember him with Oakland and being one of the biggest names in the game for a few years. However, since you have him placed as a starter, why the choice of Oakland as opposed to Boston?

2. With Darrell Evans (with the Giants over the Braves) and Roberto Alomar (Blue Jays over the Indians), it is pretty close as to which team the player provided the most value. What was the thought process with those selections or any others that you may have had a difficult time selecting a club for.

3. Who would you say has the weakest case of the players you "enshrined"? In other words, excluding the negro leaguers/19th century ballplayers, who is the worst player listed in your opinion. Secondly, if you had to pick one more player to put in, who was it that most narrowly missed the cut?

4. If you don't have this handy, leave it be...don't go researching too much, but what players made the Hall of Fame/Hall of Merit that you don't have making your Hall? What players do you have listed that didn't make one or both of those Halls?


Finally...awesome job on this...between your rosters for the game and your insight/research/knowledge/opinions of the actual game, you certainly do provide a lot of value for this forum and for BBM. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

Finally...awesome job on this...between your rosters for the game and your insight/research/knowledge/opinions of the actual game, you certainly do provide a lot of value for this forum and for BBM. Thanks.

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This. You have almost (not quite, but almost ;) ) single handedly made this forum worth continuing to wade through all the pissfights between the little kids (and between the big kids in Ejections). Thanks for all you contribute around here dude.

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

Finally...awesome job on this...between your rosters for the game and your insight/research/knowledge/opinions of the actual game, you certainly do provide a lot of value for this forum and for BBM. Thanks.

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Yeah that; anyways why only two relievers?

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Originally Posted by Evo X

anyways why only two relievers?

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Relievers don't pitch very much

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

1. You have Eckersley as a starting pitcher, but with an A's hat. I certainly remember him with Oakland and being one of the biggest names in the game for a few years. However, since you have him placed as a starter, why the choice of Oakland as opposed to Boston?

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Eckersley's cap could go either way, honestly. He had far more value, overall, as a starter than he did as a reliever, but he did spend five and a half years as a starter with Cleveland and Chicago, not Boston. His overall value between Boston and Oakland is closer (Boston ahead by a couple wins according to WAR), but it was close enough that I decided to give Eck and Oakland cap because that's where he truly "made his name" so to speak.

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

2. With Darrell Evans (with the Giants over the Braves) and Roberto Alomar (Blue Jays over the Indians), it is pretty close as to which team the player provided the most value. What was the thought process with those selections or any others that you may have had a difficult time selecting a club for.

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With Evans, Baseball-Reference's WAR has his Atlanta years worth one WAR more than his San Francisco years. However, given that one WAR over that many years is effectively nothing, I went with San Francisco on the basis of him having ~800 more plate appearances there.

Regarding Alomar, WAR has him half a win more valuable with Cleveland than with Toronto, but like with Evans, it was close enough that I went with Toronto because of ~1,000 extra plate appearances.

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

3. Who would you say has the weakest case of the players you "enshrined"? In other words, excluding the negro leaguers/19th century ballplayers, who is the worst player listed in your opinion. Secondly, if you had to pick one more player to put in, who was it that most narrowly missed the cut?

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Weakest case...I'd say Graig Nettles.

There were many that narrowly missed the cut, particularly when it comes to pitchers. I don't know if I could pick just one, but let's see....Phil Rizzuto, Dwight Evans, Andre Dawson, Will Clark, Bill Terry, Rollie Fingers, Rick Reuschel, Bret Saberhagen, Dave Stieb, Luis Tiant, Vic Willis, Early Wynn....I'd have to say either Evans or Reuschel.

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

4. If you don't have this handy, leave it be...don't go researching too much, but what players made the Hall of Fame/Hall of Merit that you don't have making your Hall? What players do you have listed that didn't make one or both of those Halls?

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I'll get back to you on this.

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Originally Posted by Evo X

Yeah that; anyways why only two relievers?

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Filihok summed it up. See my relief pitcher rankings.

all thumbs up here

anyone watching the Alomar interview on mlbhd? going in as a blue jay awesome

now Costas is going on about the roid users ....

Edit: Nvm i am stoopid.

Again, awesome stuff...thanks for the answers...one final question. In general, did the magic numbers (3000 hits, 300 wins, etc) hold any value in the individual player rankings or with selecting your hall? As an example, I'm guessing Harold Baines isn't all that close to making your (or any other) Hall...but had he reached 3000 hits (which possbily would have led to 400 home runs); would that have changed his placement much (outside of whatever value those 134 hits and 16 home runs provided)?

I'm guessing that you didn't include retired players who haven't been out for six years yet, right?

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

Again, awesome stuff...thanks for the answers...one final question. In general, did the magic numbers (3000 hits, 300 wins, etc) hold any value in the individual player rankings or with selecting your hall? As an example, I'm guessing Harold Baines isn't all that close to making your (or any other) Hall...but had he reached 3000 hits (which possbily would have led to 400 home runs); would that have changed his placement much (outside of whatever value those 134 hits and 16 home runs provided)?

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I'm pretty sure HGM's answer to the Baines query will be: not a snowball's chance in hell. ;)

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Originally Posted by free2131

I'm guessing that you didn't include retired players who haven't been out for six years yet, right?

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Yes. Otherwise Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds among others would be there.

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

Again, awesome stuff...thanks for the answers...one final question. In general, did the magic numbers (3000 hits, 300 wins, etc) hold any value in the individual player rankings or with selecting your hall? As an example, I'm guessing Harold Baines isn't all that close to making your (or any other) Hall...but had he reached 3000 hits (which possbily would have led to 400 home runs); would that have changed his placement much (outside of whatever value those 134 hits and 16 home runs provided)?

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Nope. I'm only interested in value. Round number milestones mean nothing to me. You'll notice that Lou Brock, with 3,000 hits, isn't in, and a 300 game winner, Early Wynn, isn't either (along with Mickey Welch), though Wynn I could be convinced on. Brock isn't close. Baines, too, wouldn't be close even with 3,000 hits.

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Originally Posted by free2131

I'm guessing that you didn't include retired players who haven't been out for six years yet, right?

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Correct. This is what my Hall of Fame looks like as of today, so that it can be directly compared to how the real life Hall looks today. Assuming I don't forget, I will, each year, add to this list as players hit the ballot in real life.

After some more consideration, I've bumped Early Wynn up a few spots in my rankings and added him to my Hall.

no Kenny Lofton?

He had no real peak, but a pretty impressive career WAR.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

After some more consideration, I've bumped Early Wynn up a few spots in my rankings and added him to my Hall.

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Why? He seems more like Jack Morris and Dennis Martinez than a hall of famer

Tigers graciously thank you for enshrining both Sweet Lou and the Tramm. Make sure you put their placks right next to each other. :p

You didn't add Cool Papa Bell? Seemed like one of the Negro Leaguers I'd add.

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Originally Posted by Tigercaptain254

Tigers graciously thank you for enshrining both Sweet Lou and the Tramm. Make sure you put their placks right next to each other. :p

You didn't add Cool Papa Bell? Seemed like one of the Negro Leaguers I'd add.

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So long as they both get in before Jack (I'm overhyped) Morris.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

no Kenny Lofton?

He had no real peak, but a pretty impressive career WAR.

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Not enough peak for me.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Why? He seems more like Jack Morris and Dennis Martinez than a hall of famer

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Wynn has 500+ more innings than both of them at a slightly higher level of performance. Plus, he has multiple years in which he has a legitimate argument as being the best pitcher in his league (1951, 1954, 1955, 1956). Martinez and Morris have none like that.

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Originally Posted by Tigercaptain254

You didn't add Cool Papa Bell? Seemed like one of the Negro Leaguers I'd add.

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I mostly deferred to the Hall of Merit on the Negro Leaguers, since they have done extensive research on them. While they did select Bell to the HoM, they ranked him last among center fielders, and I left off a few Negro Leaguers that they ranked very low in their positional rankings.

Olerud a borderline player?

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Originally Posted by Coach Owens

Olerud a borderline player?

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http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthr...02#post1537702

Bah, Olerud was better than Terry and Giambi.

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Originally Posted by Coach Owens

Bah, Olerud was better than Terry and Giambi.

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I already replied to this in the other thread. Career-value wise, they're all very close (56.8 Olerud, 55.4 Terry, 52.8 Giambi, according to BB-ref WAR). And here's the top 6 seasons for each player:

8.2, 8.1, 5.3, 5.3, 5.2, 5.1 (Olerud, 37.2)
7.9, 7.6, 6.8, 6.2, 5.3, 5.0 (Terry, 38.8)
10.3, 8.7, 7.3, 6.9, 4.6, 4.3 (Giambi, 41.2)

It's close. I like the better peak of Giambi, and the greater consistency of Terry, so I ranked them ahead of Olerud. They're all really close...close enough that I think you can't claim with certainty that any of the three were "better" than any of the other two. It's a matter of taste in career value, peak value, and consistency at a high level.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Not enough peak for me.

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not to be argumentative here how can you ignore career value when evaluating a career? dude has a career WAR of 65.3 which puts him between Andrew Jones at 59.3 and Jim Edmonds at 68.3. correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you say in another thread you thought both those guys should make the hall?

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

not to be argumentative here how can you ignore career value when evaluating a career? dude has a career WAR of 65.3 which puts him between Andrew Jones at 59.3 and Jim Edmonds at 68.3. correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you say in another thread you thought both those guys should make the hall?

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I never said I ignore career value, but neither do I ignore peak or prime value. I don't rank players simply by their total career WAR.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I never said I ignore career value, but neither do I ignore peak or prime value. I don't rank players simply by their total career WAR.

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i never said that you said that, i feel that was what you were doing by proxy tho. what is wrong with a player providing solid all around consistent value? why isnt that as valuable as a guy with similar WAR but higher peaks and valleys? 60 plus WAR over early equally long careers, seems to me if one is hall worthy the other has to be too...






/

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

i never said that you said that, i feel that was what you were doing by proxy tho. what is wrong with a player providing solid all around consistent value? why isnt that as valuable as a guy with similar WAR but higher peaks and valleys? 60 plus WAR over early equally long careers, seems to me if one is hall worthy the other has to be too...

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Sort of agree...

If Player A has 10 years and 60 WAR with 30 WAR coming in 3 of the years and
Player B has 10 years and 60 WAR with 6 WAR per year

I don't know why you'd say that Player A was better because he had a higher peak, Player B was better in more years.

In this specific case though:

Lofton: 9234 PA, 65.3 bWAR, 65.1 fWAR = 4.24 bWAR / 600 PA, 4.23 fWAR / 600PA
Jones: 8173 PA, 59.9 bWAR, 70.5 fWAR = 4.40 bWAR / 600 PA, 5.18 fWAR / 600PA
Edmonds: 7980 PA, 68.3, bWAR, 68.1 fWAR = 5.14 bWAR / 600 PA, 5.12 fWAR / 600PA

Edmonds was clearly more productive than Lofton per PA (as a proxy for playing time)
Jones is a bit more interesting as much of his value came from defense, but still was probably more productive than Lofton per PA

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1153...0_1_8_2011.png

You can see the Lofton's graph is below Edmonds' and Jones' for the highest ten years.

Lofton only gains on them in the lesser years and by playing more years

or

Lofton was better than Edmonds in 5 years but Edmonds was better than Lofton in 9 years

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

i never said that you said that, i feel that was what you were doing by proxy tho. what is wrong with a player providing solid all around consistent value? why isnt that as valuable as a guy with similar WAR but higher peaks and valleys? 60 plus WAR over early equally long careers, seems to me if one is hall worthy the other has to be too...

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Higher peaks are more valuable because they do more towards the team's goal. Basically, one player providing 7 WAR is more valuable than two players that each provide 3.5 WAR, because the value is concentrated in one player.

Plus, there is an element of greatness to the Hall. A player that provides 3 WAR a season over 20 years was never a great player. He was just consistently above average. A player with the same 60 career WAR but 5 seasons above 7 WAR and the 25 other WAR spread out over 10 years was clearly a great player for an extended period of time, an MVP candidate for a five year stretch. I don't know how one can conclude that those players are equivalent. The second player was clearly better.

Filihok displayed the specific case of Lofton/Edmonds/Jones well. For their top 10 years, Edmonds and Jones were 1-2 wins better each year than Lofton's top 10 years. Playing a few extra years and adding a couple WAR per year is good, but adds little to a Hall of Fame case in my opinion. Edmonds and Jones were both clearly better players than Lofton, and not just for a year or two.

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Originally Posted by filihok

Sort of agree...

If Player A has 10 years and 60 WAR with 30 WAR coming in 3 of the years and
Player B has 10 years and 60 WAR with 6 WAR per year

I don't know why you'd say that Player A was better because he had a higher peak, Player B was better in more years.

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In that instance, both players would make my Hall, but as for how I'd rank them, I'm not sure. 3 all-time great seasons and 7 roughly All-Star caliber seasons of about 4.3 WAR, or 10 All-Star caliber seasons of 6 WAR that are not quite MVP-candidate years?

I suppose it would depend on contextual things...like did Player B, despite not posting an "MVP level 7 WAR season:", lead his league in WAR a few times?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Higher peaks are more valuable because they do more towards the team's goal. Basically, one player providing 7 WAR is more valuable than two players that each provide 3.5 WAR, because the value is concentrated in one player.

Plus, there is an element of greatness to the Hall. A player that provides 3 WAR a season over 20 years was never a great player. He was just consistently above average. A player with the same 60 career WAR but 5 seasons above 7 WAR and the 25 other WAR spread out over 10 years was clearly a great player for an extended period of time, an MVP candidate for a five year stretch. I don't know how one can conclude that those players are equivalent. The second player was clearly better.

Filihok displayed the specific case of Lofton/Edmonds/Jones well. For their top 10 years, Edmonds and Jones were 1-2 wins better each year than Lofton's top 10 years. Playing a few extra years and adding a couple WAR per year is good, but adds little to a Hall of Fame case in my opinion. Edmonds and Jones were both clearly better players than Lofton, and not just for a year or two.


In that instance, both players would make my Hall, but as for how I'd rank them, I'm not sure. 3 all-time great seasons and 7 roughly All-Star caliber seasons of about 4.3 WAR, or 10 All-Star caliber seasons of 6 WAR that are not quite MVP-candidate years?

I suppose it would depend on contextual things...like did Player B, despite not posting an "MVP level 7 WAR season:", lead his league in WAR a few times?

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obviously for a given season a higher WAR per player is better. however we are talking about career value per player over nearly equal career lengths. from a team perspective all 3 players provided me exactly the same numbers of wins (value) in the same time span, so from that perspective i still won just as many games in that time frame as I would have regardless of which three I chose for that time span, therefore one was no more valuable than another to my team over time. For me the hall should evaluate a players career, anyone can be good for a few short seasons - are we gonna start putting the Ron kittles of the world in the hall because of a couple of good seasons while ignoring guys that are steady producers? Greatness is sometimes defined as prolonged goodness.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

obviously for a given season a higher WAR per player is better. however we are talking about career value per player over nearly equal career lengths.

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I agree that they have similar overall career value. Again, though, I am not ranking players based solely on overall career value.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

from a team perspective all 3 players provided me exactly the same numbers of wins (value) in the same time span, so from that perspective i still won just as many games in that time frame as I would have regardless of which three I chose for that time span, therefore one was no more valuable than another to my team over time.

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Concentrated value is more valuable towards the goal of winning a pennant. A player who provides 1 WAR each year for seven seasons didn't provide is team equal value to a player who had one 7 WAR season...at least not when it comes towards the goal of winning a pennant. That one 7 WAR season was 7 wins towards winning that season's pennant, all provided by one player - extremely valuable and hard to replace. A single WAR over 7 seasons is one win provided towards winning 7 different pennants, BUT that one WAR each year is much easier to replace than an MVP caliber season.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

For me the hall should evaluate a players career

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It should, but peak and prime are part of a player's career.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

, anyone can be good for a few short seasons - are we gonna start putting the Ron kittles of the world in the hall because of a couple of good seasons while ignoring guys that are steady producers? Greatness is sometimes defined as prolonged goodness.

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I don't know what Ron Kittle has to do with this conversation, he didn't even have a peak to speak of. His best season was league average. :confused:

I'm not arguing for pure peak value. If I was, Al Rosen would be in my Hall. But neither do I believe in ranking players strictly by career value. My rankings are a mix of a variety of factors - overall career value, peak value, prime value, etc.

According to what you're saying, Sandy Koufax would be a borderline Hall of Famer who was just as good as Chuck Finley, Bret Saberhagen and Dave Stieb. Sorry, but I can't buy that line of thinking. Koufax may have had his value concentrated in 5-6 year period, but he was the top pitcher in the game for that period, while a guy like Chuck Finley, good for for 11-12 years, was rarely ever in that conversation. Despite providing overall career value similar to Koufax, Finley isn't close to Koufax when it comes to a Hall of Fame conversation.

I think there is a new pitcher to consider.

Quote:

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Soon, the forgotten pitcher had a volunteer army. Gorton’s network unearthed an 18-inning, 31-strikeout game, a 27-strikeout game and four 19-strikeout outings. But a bigger world awaited Gorton when his group began unearthing Donaldson’s career with the All-Nations team, which was the forerunner to what became Negro League baseball’s most prestigious club.

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Theres also footage here, and his windup does look like a mirror Bob Gibson.

I am sad to not see Sidd Finch on here

None of the new players on the 2012 ballot made my personal Hall of Fame.