Man, looking ahead to my opponent in the fantasy finals, he has Mike Vick against Minnesota. I have no shot. Vick is going to drop a billion.
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Man, looking ahead to my opponent in the fantasy finals, he has Mike Vick against Minnesota. I have no shot. Vick is going to drop a billion.
ryan's good.....but Brees is still ranked higher imo. i don't think its close yet. ryan may be having a better year but brees has a better track record. ryan is benefitting from a much better O-line and running game as well as better receivers than the saints have right now. thats the problem with these type reviews...you can't simply compare QB stats to say who's better. So many other factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
After White and Gonzalez the Falcons don't have much for pass catchers. The Saints are loaded at receiver with Colston, Henderson, Meachem, Moore, and Roby. Not to mention Shockey at TE, and Reggie Bush as a guy you can split out to WR. And better depth and more consistency at RB with Bush, Ivory, and Pierre. As much as I love Michael Turner, he's terribly inconsistent. His numbers this year are really misleading, he's been extremely up or down on a game-to-game basis. In short, the Saints definitely have more playmakers on the offensive side of the ball for Brees to play with. The offensive line is highly debatable as well. The Falcons o-line isn't exactly bursting with perennial pro-bowlers, and both Brees and Ryan have been sacked 21 times this season and according to this metric, the Saints offensive line is marginally better.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Not saying the guy who wrote the article is right (especially since I can't read the article in it's entirety since I'm not an ESPN insider), but you can make an argument.
Brees has a much better track record. I think Ryan WILL be better than Brees in about 2-3 years but just because he's outplayed him this year it's a little premature to say he's surpassed him. I think Brees should have won MVP last year.
Ryan does have the best WR in the game this year as well as a HOF receiver in TG
And you think the Saints are better suited at RB? They get journeymen and 7th round picks to perform once or twice and then they fall off the map i.e. Mike Bell. They don't have exactly a fantastic running back core and I'd take Turner over anyone the Saints can put out there at RB
+ all of this, with the exception of Ryan one day being better than Brees. I do think he will be better one day because i believe he's younger and Brees will regress....but for their career and at their peaks..i'd take Brees all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
I think Brees benefits from having the offensive explosions that were San Diego and New Orleans and I see Ryan eventually becoming a better QB overall. Ryan's showing signs of greatness, possible multi-MVP greatness
I know he has White and Gonzalez. I'm just saying that the Saints have a lot more to work with. Colston is a pro-bowl wideout, and Henderson and Meachem could probably be featured receivers on a lot of teams; Moore and Roby aren't exactly slouches either, and Shockey is a great TE in his own right. Last time I checked over half of Matt Ryan's completions this season were combined between Gonzalez and White, and part of the reason is that Michael Jenkins, Harry Douglas, and Brian Finneran aren't very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
I'm also not saying the Saints have world-beating running backs or that they're collectively better than Turner. Just that the Falcons running game isn't always as good as it's perceived to be. Turner is extremely inconsistent. He has one more game rushing for fewer than fifty yards this season (four) than he does rushing for 120 or more (three).
The Falcons run game is still better than the Saints. And for all the wideouts who look great in NO, I think some of that has to be given to Brees. None of those wideouts were first round picks.
Uhhh, Meachem was a first round pick. And Brees didn't transform Colston from the 7th round pick he was into a pro-bowl receiver. And Devery Henderson was a second round pick, so it's not like he was a fifth round pick who came out of nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
yeah you're right. Ryan's way better.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
There is absolutely no comparison between Brees and Ryan. Brees is 10 times better. Ryan's good, but Brees is one of the top 3 or 4 in the league.
Sorry Meachem. Colston did that all on his own eh? It wasn't Drew Brees at all? No way that a QB's ability has any effect on whether or not a wideout becomes good?
Ladies and Gentleman,
Brandon Lloyd of the 49ers
Brandon Lloyd of the Denver Broncos
Drew Brees is better, YD. He's thrown for over 4000 yards three times in his career. He has had 3 MVP caliber seasons INCLUDING his third starting season in which he tossed 27 tds and 7 picks in San Diego. Yeah, sure, he's got talent around him, but I'm pretty sure SOMEONE has to throw the ball to these guys. Colston wouldn't be a pro bowler on Carolina
Yes, that is clearly what I was trying to say. I wasn't simply stating that Brees has more playmakers. Or correcting OD that none of them were first round picks, when one of them actually was, another was a second rounder, and one was a 7th rounder who turned himself into a pro-bowler.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
I wouldn't say he did it all on his own, but it had more to do with his own ability than the quality of the guy throwing him the ball, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Like I said, Colston wouldn't be putting this up in Carolina
the question is...if you had Carolina today whom do you want at QB? Ryan or Brees? I think the vast majority of people would take the latter...and that would be the correct decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
That goes both ways, not to mention being painfully obvious (see: Steve Smith post-Jake Delhomme collapse, Larry Fitzgerald post-Kurt Warner retirement). Brees' numbers wouldn't be as pretty if he didn't have the aforementioned guys to throw to. And you're making it sound like Brees has more to do with Colston's success than Colston's own talent, which is completely asinine.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
It's completely a matter of opinion. Ryan is similar in talent level and five or six years younger.Quote:
the question is...if you had Carolina today whom do you want at QB? Ryan or Brees? I think the vast majority of people would take the latter...and that would be the correct decision.
If I was Carolina right now I'd take Ryan considering he's younger and my team sucks so we're not going to win anytime soon.
I think wideouts do have a lot to do with their own success especially good route runners but like you said with Larry Fitz and Steve Smith, when you don't have a legitimate QB to throw you the ball, you're not going to put up numbers. Colston benefits from Brees more than I think you want to admit. Yeah, he's physical, big, and a good route runner but the dude is from Hofstra, drafted 7th round. To say that Brees benefits more from him than he does from Brees is asinine was well. It's like saying Joe Montana was sooo great because the dude played with the best wideout of all time. They both benefit from each other.
And it's not like Ryan is playing with chips and dip, the dude has Roddy White possibly the most consistent wideout in the NFL. He's got a hell of a lot better than what Peyton's got.
I agree on the Carolina point.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
As I said before though, you're making it sound like Brees had everything to do with Colston becoming the player he is, and that Colston had almost nothing to do with it. Which simply isn't true. Having a guy like Brees' throwing you the ball certainly helps, but Colston's own work ethic and talent were the main reason he got himself to where he is.
How am I making it sound like that, because I'm missing that part. What I'm saying is that Brees makes the guys around him better, and I don't think a lot of people can argue with the fact that a good QB makes the guys around him better. Tom Brady with Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, etc. etc. Peyton Manning with Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon, etc. etc.
To deny that a QB makes his WR's better by being good is silly, frankly because it's obvious all throughout the game. I'm not saying Colston is completely constructed by Brees but I don't think Marques would be a pro bowler without a good QB.
Maybe I'm taking what you're saying the wrong way or something. But it seems to me like you're saying the QB has more to do with the success of the WR than the WR's own talent does, which I don't think is true. Maybe in extreme cases (as evidenced by Smith and Fitzy's drop-off when they lost their QB's), but in general the WR's talent is more important than that of the QB throwing him the ball. And it does go both ways. A good WR can make a QB look better than he really is just as much as a good QB can make a WR look better than he really is. The relationship between QB and WR is mutually beneficial (or mutually detrimental).Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
That sounds familiar...
I think Brees is better than Ryan, even if he had the best WR core in the history of the world, he still has to make correct reads and throw the ball well.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
And Ryan isn't playing with peanuts. So obv. Ryan needs Roddy White to be successful right, using your logic that a QB benefits more from the wideout then the other way around?
well yeah...age aside i thought went w/o saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Randy Moss in Oakland...
You can't really throw age aside. It's completely relevant in that discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
FWIW, I'm not saying that Ryan is better than Brees or whatever, I was just posting it for discussion. I was fairly surprised to see anyone thought that highly of him yet.
I just want to add in at this point in time I would take Brees. One thing not mentioned as far as his weapons go, that Bush has missed most of the season and he really is a catalyst to that offense. I would even say that Atlanta has a much more balanced team than NO has at this point in time. The thing that kind of gets me about Ryan is that it seems like he doesn't wow you with his numbers. He has only thrown for over 300 yards in a game once this year, Brees has had 6 games of over 300 yards and a few of those were over 350 yards.
Another thing is Ryan has had 3 games of less than 200 yards passing. 2 of those against the truck teams of the NFL Cleveland and Seattle. I personally would like to start seeing Ryan shred defenses a little bit more before I put him up there with Brees and the likes of. I will acknowledge though that he is a very good QB, just not a gamebreaking QB just yet. He should get there with some of the personnel he has.
Well, I think the stats are little misleading, since Ryan has a good running game and Brees does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
My barometer of "who's better" is this ... if you had to win a playoff game tomorrow, who would you rather have under center? I'd say Brees without hesitation.
True, which is why I said I would like to see Ryan in a situation where he has to be forced to throw the ball more. Their offense seems more focused on Turner at this point, who leads the NFL in carries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobie
Their stats are quite comparable, in my opinion. Brees does edge him in all major passing categories, but Ryan's numbers aren't bad at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Matt Ryan - 3,300 yards, 25 TD, 9 INT, 90.5 QB rating
Drew Brees - 4,000 yards, 31 TD, 19 INT, 93.5 QB rating
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=QBQuote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
They are 1 - 2 (by a good margin) in Win Probability Added.
Brees is pretty far ahead in Expected Points Added / Play. Brees is about as far ahead of Ryan as Brady is in front of Brees.
They are tied, and pretty far down the list, on average yards per pass attempt
Never said they were, just like everyone else here at this point I would much rather have Brees.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
700 yards is comparable? That's a pretty big margin..
The main point was that Matt Ryan isn't as mediocre statistically as he's often made out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Should I start Michael Vick or Tom Brady?
Drop both and pick up Sam BradfordQuote:
Originally Posted by monsterboy
no wonder >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by President
We know. We all know.
Brady. He's playing the Bills.
:(Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG