Tori Hunter: Black Latino players are "impostors"

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=4983236

So, what do you think about what he said? Some would say he is a racist, some would say that he is trying to articulate reasons why African-American players choose another sport over baseball.

These are the comments that he made.

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"People see dark faces out there, and the perception is that they're African-American. They're not us. They're impostors. Even people I know come up and say: 'Hey, what color is Vladimir Guerrero? Is he a black player?' I say, 'Come on, he's Dominican. He's not black.' ...

"As African-American players, we have a theory that baseball can go get an imitator and pass them off as us. It's like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper. It's like, 'Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?' ... I'm telling you, it's sad," he said.

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Personally, I have found that while a lot of people complain about the lack of "diversity" in the MLB, what they really are saying is "There's not enough African-Americans, and other races don't count." MLB is a VERY diverse sports, probably more so than most other sports (I'd have to Google that to see). We can talk about whether or not those players are adequately compensated for their talents (which most aren't), but to try and say that the MLB isn't diverse enough is intellectually dishonest.

My thing is, don't complain about a lack of diversity when in fact what you want is more of your own race playing. Just come out and say that teams need more black players, and maybe I'll support you on that point.

So if Vlad's kids are born in the states, are they Dominican or black?

So i'm not white...I'm Italian? Even though I wasn't born in Italy?

I do see his comments as racist personally. If he looked at it and said, he's black AND dominican...than I could see it as less racist, but to me we need to begin getting rid of these labels altogether.

On my census form, i'm not posting "White" as my ethnicity or race. I'm choosing other and writing in "American". Its not because I don't see myself as white but because its an American census and I look at us all as equals regardless of color, or nationality. I think future census shouldn't even ask that question....as the only people filling them out should be American citizens. To me its an irrelevant question and I won't help them profile.

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Originally Posted by dickay

On my census form, i'm not posting "White" as my ethnicity or race. I'm choosing other and writing in "American". Its not because I don't see myself as white but because its an American census and I look at us all as equals regardless of color, or nationality. I think future census shouldn't even ask that question....as the only people filling them out should be American citizens.

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Wrong. The census counts everybody (or tries to); whether you're a citizen or a resident alien, you're supposed to be counted.

I tend to agree that the census shouldn't ask about your racial background, but if they quit doing so, it would be denounced as a racist move.

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Originally Posted by dps

Wrong. The census counts everybody (or tries to); whether you're a citizen or a resident alien, you're supposed to be counted.

I tend to agree that the census shouldn't ask about your racial background, but if they quit doing so, it would be denounced as a racist move.

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true, by "resident alien" you mean legally within the country. I could see a census question asking one to mark off "American" or "legal resident alien" or some term such as that. Obviously there are likely some living in the state from abroad that are not American citizens and would not wish to chose "American" on the census.

I don't necessarily see why excluding the racial background from the census would be viewed entirely as a racist move. Sure you will have some decry racism...just as some do with the fact that its inserted in the census. You can't make everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Its not because I don't see myself as white but because its an American census and I look at us all as equals regardless of color, or nationality. I think future census shouldn't even ask that question....as the only people filling them out should be American citizens. To me its an irrelevant question and I won't help them profile.

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I largely agree with what you had to say above, until we get to the point in this country where we think of ourselves as Americans first and foremost will racism truly die out in this country. Having said that there are people in this country that have a vested interest in the status quo and they seem to do a very good job of trying to remind/emphasis to us how different we all are from each other rather than how alike we really are.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

I largely agree with what you had to say above, until we get to the point in this country where we think of ourselves as Americans first and foremost will racism truly die out in this country. Having said that there are people in this country that have a vested interest in the status quo and they seem to do a very good job of trying to remind/emphasis to us how different we all are from each other rather than how alike we really are.

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I understand your point. I think we are all different and those differences should be celebrated and cherished.

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Originally Posted by dickay

I understand your point. I think we are all different and those differences should be celebrated and cherished.

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Agreed... however by pointing out differences, you are giving a reason to be excluded. It is a double edged sword

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

Agreed... however by pointing out differences, you are giving a reason to be excluded. It is a double edged sword

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I don't agree with that..at all really. Maybe i'm not understanding your point.

To point out differences in skin color is well, completely irrelevant. To point out differences in culture, upbringing, life experiences.....those are all very important and positive to discussions and breed inclusion not exclusion.

This reminds me of the latest SCOTUS hearings for Sotomayor. Being a Latino woman, some initially tried to use that against her as meaning she'd be biased. Thats a rediculous and unfair argument that could be said about anybody (white anglosaxon male for example). Using the flip side of that coin however, she brings a different mindset, experiences, culture, upbringing that should be welcomed and cherished.

We all see life through different eyes. Each of our visions and ideas are valuable.

well its not racist ... maybe racist conspiracy theory. But i guess the deeper question is there a difference between black and African-American?

Is, say, Vlad no longer of African descent because his forebears were brought to the Caribbean and not the US?

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

well its not racist ... maybe racist conspiracy theory. But i guess the deeper question is there a difference between black and African-American?

Is, say, Vlad no longer of African descent because his forebears were brought to the Caribbean and not the US?

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1. why is it not racist? to me its clearly racist.

2. there are many people of dark skin that take offense to the term "african american". What if the black individual in Toriis remarks was from Europe or the mid-east. Basically, he's saying that to be black you have to be African American? I just don't get it.

Torii's kind of a dick.

Where does that leave white Dominicans?

People are getting wrapped up in something that wasn't his point. My understanding of his complaint is that MLB has done little to promote the development of black baseball players from the US. They can get away with this because fans see plenty of diversity in baseball, because of all the players of African descent from places other than the US. He was just trying to point out that their presence doesn't alter his contention that MLB should do more to promote baseball among African-Americans. And yes, he chose his words poorly, which he has admitted, and given that he is a pro baseball player with at most a high-school education, rather than a lawyer, I think people should give him a break and focus on the point that he was obviously trying to make.

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Originally Posted by dickay

I don't agree with that..at all really. Maybe i'm not understanding your point.

To point out differences in skin color is well, completely irrelevant. To point out differences in culture, upbringing, life experiences.....those are all very important and positive to discussions and breed inclusion not exclusion.

This reminds me of the latest SCOTUS hearings for Sotomayor. Being a Latino woman, some initially tried to use that against her as meaning she'd be biased. Thats a rediculous and unfair argument that could be said about anybody (white anglosaxon male for example). Using the flip side of that coin however, she brings a different mindset, experiences, culture, upbringing that should be welcomed and cherished.

We all see life through different eyes. Each of our visions and ideas are valuable.

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My point was that if you want to get rid of racisem and biggotry and intollerence we all need to be carbon copies of each other... which I of feel would SUCK... BUT in order to express mysell, due to intollerance there is backlash from less educated/lower moral people.
ICP said it best.

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Originally Posted by Everybody Rise-ICP

Fu(k skin color, everybody's blue
Then what would all these bigots do?
Instead of your tone, they'd hate your size
That's why I must poke out all of their eyes

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there is ALWAYS something that idiots will look for to point out how they are "Better, smarter, superior" to others... its just how some of us humans are.

Dickay... We think alike on a lot of things I have noticed lately. I think we do in this I am just terrible explaining my feelings... maybe because I am not gay

























not that there is anything wrong with that :p

using ICP is automatic failure.

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Originally Posted by dickay

1. why is it not racist? to me its clearly racist.

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I dont rally get what you think is racist in him comments? I do think he is projecting that there is a racist conspiracy, but i don't think that that's racist, as odd as that sounds

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2. there are many people of dark skin that take offense to the term "african american". What if the black individual in Toriis remarks was from Europe or the mid-east. Basically, he's saying that to be black you have to be African American? I just don't get it.

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Exactly, obviously, Torii draws a line that African-American is different than Black, or that "Black" isn't a term to define those with high levels of eumelanin in there skin, but only those Americans of African desect ..

Either way OD is correct that he comes off as kind of a dick.

The point he's trying to make is valid, but my god did he choose pretty much the worst possible way to do so....so he pretty much erased any credibility he can have on the issue now.

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I dont rally get what you think is racist in him comments? I do think he is projecting that there is a racist conspiracy, but i don't think that that's racist, as odd as that sounds

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We're reading the same thing entirely different I guess. I read Torii stating that Vlad isn't black, he's Latin. I read Torii equating African Americans as the only real "blacks". When he says;

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"People see dark faces out there, and the perception is that they're African-American. They're not us. They're impostors. Even people I know come up and say: 'Hey, what color is Vladimir Guerrero? Is he a black player?' I say, 'Come on, he's Dominican. He's not black.' ...

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That to me is clearly racism. The only people who can be "us" or "blacks" are apparently........well, not dominicans. They apparently aren't real blacks, they are imposters.

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Exactly, obviously, Torii draws a line that African-American is different than Black, or that "Black" isn't a term to define those with high levels of eumelanin in there skin, but only those Americans of African desect ..

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You're saying two different things in that quote. You start by saying that African Americans are different than black, and end by saying that only African Americans can be black. It is the latter that sounds like what Torii is trying to say, not the prior.

Anyhow, I agree he sounds like a dick. My issue is, that those who are truly racist don't see the error in their thinking or words initially, and his words were off the cuff and had racist sentiments. They reflect his true opinions. However, when one has time to reflect they can see that their opinions may have hurt others, and shouldn't have been said. So even if he says, "its not what I meant to say" theres the possibility that its exactly what he meant to say but now regrets it.

He needs to learn his place and start picking that cotton.























Too far? ;)

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Originally Posted by free2131

He needs to learn his place and start picking that cotton.























Too far? ;)

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maybe a tad.

Did you know that Dave Matthews is African -American?

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It's like, 'Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?' ... I'm telling you, it's sad," he said.

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Problem: young foreigners make more than young domestics.

Comment from BTF:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...a_insufficien/

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Baseball’s African-American population is 8%, compared with 28% for foreign players on last year’s opening-day rosters.

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So, that's 8% out of the 72% American players which comes out to 11.1% of native-born players. Compared to 12.8% of the US population being black. Which includes hispanics who self-identify as black also.

I'm just not seing the under-representation. Unless you want to but in to some racialist theories about blacks being "superior athletes" and so they "should" be 20% or 30%.

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They're not us. They're impostors

That implies intent...which is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Torii Hunter

See, just cause you're dark like David Ortiz...that doesn't mean you're black, dawg. Black people cannot come from anywhere except the USA. Black by way of another slade trade, that didn't terminate within the continental US? No good. Black is only black in these 48 states.

You imposters should be ashamed of yourselves - Ortiz, making a paltry $12.5mil! You're just taking up a slot that should be given to my man Damian Jackson. You mo-fo'in imposter.

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Torii Hunter, 1
Basic history, 0

You ain't no macaroni, you an im-pasta!

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

Torii Hunter, 1
Basic history, 0

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Hypocrisy regarding speaking about others being racist, 1
Alloutwar, 0

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Hypocrisy regarding speaking about others being racist, 1
Alloutwar, 0

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What

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

What

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AOW's little fake quote is pretty racist IMO.

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See, just cause you're dark like David Ortiz...that doesn't mean you're black, dawg. Black people cannot come from anywhere except the USA. Black by way of another slade trade, that didn't terminate within the continental US? No good. Black is only black in these 48 states.

You imposters should be ashamed of yourselves - Ortiz, making a paltry $12.5mil! You're just taking up a slot that should be given to my man Damian Jackson. You mo-fo'in imposter.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

AOW's little fake quote is pretty racist IMO.

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Your opinion doesn't matter and it isn't fact like HGM.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

AOW's little fake quote is pretty racist IMO.

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IE. a joke.

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Originally Posted by free2131

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=4983236

So, what do you think about what he said? Some would say he is a racist, some would say that he is trying to articulate reasons why African-American players choose another sport over baseball.

These are the comments that he made.



Personally, I have found that while a lot of people complain about the lack of "diversity" in the MLB, what they really are saying is "There's not enough African-Americans, and other races don't count." MLB is a VERY diverse sports, probably more so than most other sports (I'd have to Google that to see). We can talk about whether or not those players are adequately compensated for their talents (which most aren't), but to try and say that the MLB isn't diverse enough is intellectually dishonest.

My thing is, don't complain about a lack of diversity when in fact what you want is more of your own race playing. Just come out and say that teams need more black players, and maybe I'll support you on that point.

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I think it's funny, that so many people only see racism when it's an attack on their color. Racism, sadly, still exists, and in many different ways. Now depending on how sensitive you are regarding racism usually depends on where you draw the line. Was Malcolm X and Kanye West racist when they speak of black power? Or is it just those hillbilly white guys in white suits that are racist? Or are both racists....some people see it differently, and not surprisingly, it seems to stem from what race they already are.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

IE. a joke.

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Joo know what I'm talkin' 'bout mang.

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Originally Posted by DiceDig

Did you know that Dave Matthews is African -American?

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there ya go!

It's true.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Joo know what I'm talkin' 'bout mang.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African...acular_English

Different ways of speaking != Racism

I know plenty of black people that speak completely articulately though. It's very racist to assume that because Torii Hunter is black, he automatically speaks in that manner.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

I know plenty of black people that speak completely articulately though. It's very racist to assume that because Torii Hunter is black, he automatically speaks in that manner.

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Alloutwar wasn't assuming that. His post was not serious.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

I know plenty of black people that speak completely articulately though. It's very racist to assume that because Torii Hunter is black, he automatically speaks in that manner.

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Playing by your game, YOU are racist assuming that the accent of many black people is incorrect.
Oops!

Metsguy, you have admitted in the past that you have issues with Latinos, so I would recommend just dropping it...

Y'all just need to quit your jibber jabber