http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/0...o-signing.html
I know basically nothing about this guy....if signed, how far would he realistically be from the majors? Is he a legitimate future ball player? who would you compare him to?
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http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/0...o-signing.html
I know basically nothing about this guy....if signed, how far would he realistically be from the majors? Is he a legitimate future ball player? who would you compare him to?
my guess is he's closer to 30 (if not over) than 25. other than that, i know nothing of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
do you just assume that because it's happened in the past w Cuban ball players? even if it's a vast minority.
yes. how do we know its a vast minority? with every significant cuban athlete i can recall there have been many questions about the validity of their listed age. yes, i'd agree only a few have been "confirmed". but where there's smoke there is usually fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
here's an interesting blog post naming many who have lied about their age;
http://www.faniq.com/blog/Miguel-Tej...-Age-Blog-8201
Quote:
Quote:
Today the Houston Astros got a little bit of a surprise. It turns out that that Miguel Tejada is actually not 31, but instead 33. That's never something you want to hear when you just traded for a guy in the offseason.
Tejada said he wanted to get a burden off his chest, so he told them his true age. Strangely, he's OK with that steroids burden still on his chest.
But the truth is that Tejada is far from the first person to do this, and he certainly won't be the last. Here's a look back at some of the other athletes that have fudged their ages.
* Danny Almonte (born April 7, 1987) played in the Little League World Series for his Bronx team in 2001, despite being over the cutoff age for the league. His parents had provided a doctored birth certificate misrepresenting his birth year as 1989. A Sports Illustrated writer discovered the discrepancy when Almonte's Dominican elementary school records gave his correct birth year.
* Orlando Hernández, born on October 11, 1965 or 1969, depending on the source, claimed to have been born in 1969 when he defected from Cuba in 1997 to pitch in Major League Baseball. The Smoking Gun published what was purported to be his divorce decree from Cuba, which gave his year of birth as 1965. 4 years is quite a big difference.
* Rafael Furcal (born August 24, 1977) was first believed to have been born in 1980. Thus, during his major league rookie season, his 40 stolen bases were considered the most ever by a teenage player, breaking the record set in 1906 by Ty Cobb. When it was discovered that Furcal had been a 21-year-old rookie, the 84-year-old record reverted to Cobb.
* Here's a list of Latin American players who have fudged their ages, most by at least one or two years: Manny Aybar, Bartolo Colón, Deivi Cruz, Octavio Dotel, Juan Guzman, David Ortiz, Ramon Ortiz, Luis Polonia, Alfonso Soriano, Luis Vizcaino, and Enrique Wilson. In a milder case, Odális Pérez was discovered to be six days older than originally reported. A few players' ages have even dropped in age, including Adrián Beltré, Edgar Rentería, Esteban Yan and Wilson Betemit; in these cases the players had lied about being older so that they could sign contracts before turning 16.
* Kirby Puckett was reported throughout his playing career to have been born on March 14, 1961. When he died in 2006, it was confirmed that he had actually been born on the same day in 1960.
I think it's silly to jump to conclusions about every athlete that comes from the Caribbean as some people do. It should be taken on a case-by-case basis. When you know nothing about the guy, I don't think it's logical to just automatically assume he's older than his age.
and its not illogical or silly to question it considering the frequency at which it has happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
And where do you get that he could be 30?
There have been some guys that have fudged their information, but it has been the extreme minority if you base it solely on the players that are listed in that blog.
Case by case basis. With absolutely nothing to go on, yeah, I think it's pretty silly for us random fans to question it. But us random fans do a lot of silly things I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
this is the same mindset that annoys me when people say players must be taking steroids just because they have played during the steroid era.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
It is illogical to continuously question those that have shown no reason for you to question them.
That's like saying Albert Pujols must do roids because he is great and played for a year with Mark McGwire and he came up during the roid era....it is insane to randomly go pointing fingers at everybody....even more so it's exhausting.
now back to my question about the player....does anyone know much about him?
People still question that Albert Pujols is 30 years old. There's no stopping irrationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Even though he went to high school and college in America and has lived in the states almost his entire life?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Haha, well if he isn't 30, then the guy is aging very well.
Nearly all of those players are from the Dominican Republic. Orlando Hernandez is the only Cuban case listed there. Most of the disputed age cases come from the D.R.Quote:
* Danny Almonte (born April 7, 1987) played in the Little League World Series for his Bronx team in 2001, despite being over the cutoff age for the league. His parents had provided a doctored birth certificate misrepresenting his birth year as 1989. A Sports Illustrated writer discovered the discrepancy when Almonte's Dominican elementary school records gave his correct birth year.
* Orlando Hernández, born on October 11, 1965 or 1969, depending on the source, claimed to have been born in 1969 when he defected from Cuba in 1997 to pitch in Major League Baseball. The Smoking Gun published what was purported to be his divorce decree from Cuba, which gave his year of birth as 1965. 4 years is quite a big difference.
* Rafael Furcal (born August 24, 1977) was first believed to have been born in 1980. Thus, during his major league rookie season, his 40 stolen bases were considered the most ever by a teenage player, breaking the record set in 1906 by Ty Cobb. When it was discovered that Furcal had been a 21-year-old rookie, the 84-year-old record reverted to Cobb.
* Here's a list of Latin American players who have fudged their ages, most by at least one or two years: Manny Aybar, Bartolo Colón, Deivi Cruz, Octavio Dotel, Juan Guzman, David Ortiz, Ramon Ortiz, Luis Polonia, Alfonso Soriano, Luis Vizcaino, and Enrique Wilson. In a milder case, Odális Pérez was discovered to be six days older than originally reported. A few players' ages have even dropped in age, including Adrián Beltré, Edgar Rentería, Esteban Yan and Wilson Betemit; in these cases the players had lied about being older so that they could sign contracts before turning 16.
* Kirby Puckett was reported throughout his playing career to have been born on March 14, 1961. When he died in 2006, it was confirmed that he had actually been born on the same day in 1960.
Yes. They're irrational.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
I question whether or not Pujols does roids. To say he "must do roids"...yes thats silly. but yes, i question it. I question it with all modern day athletes, especially in a sport where quite a few players have come out stating the use of such stuff was rampant and over 50% of the players were using something. I don't view them as users, just as I don't view a latin player as a liar....but I do question it and am not surprised when i see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
i think its naive to think pujols or anyone is completely innocent, or at least not naive to not suspect or question it at all, and then be shocked if you hear differently. In todays climate, it shouldn't surprise or shock you if you heard he does use in the least. If it does....shame on you.
It wouldn't surprise or shock me, but I'm not going to hurl around baseless accusations, even if they're just "questions", either.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
who has hurled accusations? he asked if we knew anything about him. I quoted that I "guessing" he's possibly older than he claims since thats been the norm with many latin players. I even heard something once that its become the norm for front offices to add 1 to 2 years to the "reported" age of latin players when evaluating an offer or attempt to acquire them. Its very common for some latin countries to, at an early age, alter an athletes listed age...from what i've heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
again, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't accuse him of lying. But based upon prior precedent, i'm guessing its very possibly the case and would not in the least be surprised if it is so. And I'd bet a good fortune that most front offices look at it in the same manner.
this.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
If it came out that this player was 30, or that Pujols did roids for example...I wouldn't be shocked, but I am not going to bring it up ever in discussion when I have no reason to believe it could be true. You can't just stereotype everybody.
By this same logic dickay, it's like saying all black people steal things because a black guy robbed a liquor store 3000 miles away....if you are going to stereotype and bring it up in discussion, then you are setting yourself up for those same accusations. In life, stereotypes may often be true, but I am not going to spend a life sheltered, assuming that everybody does what my predetermined senses assume. If I did that, I wouldn't have a career.
Except it hasn't been the norm, and you brought it up...I never asked anything about the players age etc. I just asked if he compares to anybody and if anybody KNOWS anything about him....you made up an assumption based on knowing that a small number of players in the history of baseball from the Dominican have lied about their ages....when only one player, from Cuba has....and maybe you don't realize this, but the list of Dominican/Cuban/Caribbean ball players is well over 1000, yet you provided a list of about 12 players who have lied.....what's the majority?Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
I don't see what the big difference is between "I'm guessing he's 30 not 25" and accusing him of being 30.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
There's a difference between "Latin countries" and "Dominican Republic." 95% of the cases I've seen have been from the D.R. Putting every Latin American player under the same veil of speculation isn't fair, and I don't think front offices do what you say they do. They no doubt investigate if they have reason to believe a player's age is being misreported, but it wouldn't be the least bit prudent of them to automatically assume every single player from any Latin American country is older than listed (especially considering that in some cases, the players have been YOUNGER than listed).
I wouldn't be "surprised" if he's older than 25, but I'm not going to "guess" or assume so without even a tiny shred of evidence, especially considering he's from Cuba where records are much more accurately kept as compared to the D.R.
heres an LA Times article on it;
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/feb...sp-dominicans1
Why would the team investigate that if they didn't question it? standard protocol i bet, and they do the same with American born athletes right?Quote:
Dozens of baseball players, major leaguers and minor leaguers alike, aged virtually overnight last winter, when an immigration crackdown after Sept. 11 uncovered discrepancies in birth certificates.
But now, with the opening of spring training only weeks away, it's apparent that the U.S. State Department's recent enforcement of a zero-tolerance policy toward false visa documentation has led to an even deeper identity crisis in the game. According to Major League Baseball, 180 players from the Dominican played in the minor leagues under false names last season.
In all, Major League Baseball has found about 550 cases of fraudulent identity -- either false birth dates or names -- for Latin American players in the last two years, 99% of them from the Dominican Republic.
"I can't say I was shocked," said Tye Waller, the Padre player development director whose internal audit of his system found 18 players using fake names. "But I was surprised by the number of guys who got away with it."
Players from impoverished countries such as the Dominican, a tiny, baseball-crazed Caribbean island where the per capita income is $1,600 a year, are often encouraged to lie about their ages by family members or buscones, the independent scouts who scour the nation for talent, arrange tryouts and deliver players to teams or agents.
A 16-year-old with a strong throwing arm or home run-hitting power is deemed to have far more potential and would garner a higher signing bonus than a 21-year-old with the same tools.
The Dodgers, for instance, agreed to give 17-year-old Jonathan Corporan a $930,000 signing bonus last April, but the deal was put on hold pending confirmation of the pitcher's age and identity. In late August, Corporan was found to be 21-year-old Reyes Soto, and Soto signed for $150,000.
cmon now, lets be honest. You know as well as I do that MLB teams "question" the validity of Ruiz and all latin players coming over, and likely have additional validity checks to investigate them. I hope at least i'm not telling you guys something you don't already know. Yes Jeffy, i listed 12 guys initially. As you can see from this article its a far more extensive issue, and we're only talking about the ones caught.
you guys can live in the dark if you'd like. When I see a latin player coming to MLB, yes....i question the validity of their age. considering the insane frequency at which this has occurred, its only prudent to do so and is nothing MLB front offices don't do as well.
I can't believe this was this big an issue...but i guess you two are on self-righteous kicks today.
You bolded that, here's some further emphasis. In fact, that entire piece you quoted was entirely about the D.R.Quote:
In all, Major League Baseball has found about 550 cases of fraudulent identity -- either false birth dates or names -- for Latin American players in the last two years, 99% of them from the Dominican Republic.
I never said they don't investigate. I said they don't assume without reason. Of course they have to confirm the pitcher's age and identity. And, yes, they do do that for those born in America - it's just easier and quicker.Quote:
The Dodgers, for instance, agreed to give 17-year-old Jonathan Corporan a $930,000 signing bonus last April, but the deal was put on hold pending confirmation of the pitcher's age and identity. In late August, Corporan was found to be 21-year-old Reyes Soto, and Soto signed for $150,000.
DR != Cuba.
DR does not stand for all Latin american countries.
It is an example of one, not the epitome and standard of latin american countries.
Man, I wonder if we get stereotyped this bad around the globe. If someone in uruguay or deep in the congo assumes all white people eat caviar, wear tophats and use monocles.
Taking the normal steps to verify ages is prudent and normal for a front office.
Assuming that everyone with darker skin is a lying piece of ****, and adjusting accordingly, is not typical front office policy.
Good thing is, if you date someone from every latin american country, you learn a lot about the differences real fast. And have lots of fun and good food while doing it! :)
OMG, did I say it only happened with cuban or DR players? no, i said latin. Do i really need to again post examples of cuban players where its happened? No...it clearly has happened. There are far more DR players in america than Cuban. The article was not only about DR players, they were speaking in terms of Latin American players and did so on more than one occassion.
And no, I don't agree with you that MLB front offices have the same approach and concern about American age authenticity as they do Latin American age authenticity. I certainly believe they question it more, and investigate it more thoroughly. I think its naive to believe they take a players posted age at face value considering the multitude of times they've proven inaccurate and the climate to alter ages that we know exists in many of those latin countries.
Yet they said that 99% of the cases are from D.R., and the D.R. is the only country mentioned in the article and it is mentioned repeatedly. "Latin America" is said once, and it's in the sentence stating that 99% of Latin American cases were from the D.R. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
They don't take it at face value. They take the necessary steps to confirm it, as they do with every player. Obviously, with Americans, it's really quick and easy. With foreign nations, it's a more complicated process. Most foreign nations, though, have good records. The D.R.'s record-keeping is very haphazard and that is why nearly every case is from the D.R.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Yes, there have been some Cuban cases. That doesn't mean that every Cuban should be treated with the same suspicion as D.R. players. That's like saying every American should be treated with suspiscion because Kirby Puckett and some other players had incorrect ages listed.
Whenever you hire somebody, no matter where, you need to know their age and authenicate that. Regardless where they are from....and that is most likely exactly what MLB front offices do with a player whether he is from California, Canada, the D.R. or Cuba....it doesn't make a difference.
Just because it has happened in the past doesn't mean it is going to be the nature of every player that comes up.
Again, you brought up his age, no one else did, and thus far, El-duque is the only Cuban born MLB player to have his age be incorrect that we know of. Just skimming the rest of that list, those are all D.R. players.
so, again my question.
What do we KNOW about this player?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Jose_RuizQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
from that information alone, I wonder if he can play defense well enough to play somewhere other than first.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Because as a first basemen, those numbers don't likely translate into much of a big league bat. And at 25, he is sort of getting kind of old to be a prospect.
I would want to know if he can play other positions well enough to consider taking a chance on him.
And he was never good enough to make the national team, just their B squad....I wonder why anyone would pay much to have him.
you do realize that there are only what, 15 or so Cubans in MLB if that many? You realize that most of them come to MLB through DR, and that some of them even list their birthplace as in the DR (hence the doctored names etc. that was detailed in the article). Of course the percentage of DR players is going to be much much higher than Cubas, as they have far higher numbers of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
there are other cubans either caught or suspected of lying about their age. Chapman was one mentioned. deny baez, Livan Hernandez and Jose Contreras are three I can think of off the top of my head. Danny almonte was cuban wasn't he?
Really, the point is that to use the 99% were DR as a reason to think Cubans shouldn't be questioned also is rediculous. Cuban should be even more eyebrow raising as we have such little access to documentation if any. The numbers are skewed because the discrepency between the amount of DR vs. cubans and other latin countries (PR not included) in general.
and finally, to think that MLB teams look at a kid born in Wichita Ka with the same level of scrutiny as they do with a cuban defector is absurd. you may wish to believe they don't stereotype all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there is A MUCH HIGHER POTENTIAL that the Latin kid has fraudulent paperwork than the kid from Kansas, and all MLB teams will more closely look at that. Thats all i've said from the beginning of this mess. Get off your high horses.
Without evidence, solely because he's from Latin America...much like what happened in the first reply to this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
The only thing I can find on any of them is a Yahoo! Answers thread on Jose Contreras.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
No, Dominican.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
There's also the issue of how Cuban records (and most other places in Latin America) are much more accurate and easier to verify than Dominican records.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Yes, there is a higher potential, hence, the process to confirm the age and identity is more involved...Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
And no, "There's a higher potential of a Latin American kid having a fraudulent birthdate than an American kid" is not all you've said. You said you'd guess that this guy is 5 years older than his listed age. The higher potential is not a reason to automatically "guess" that every Latin American is older than his listed age.
You don't!?! Holy ****!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
that and the whole, ya know, having to defect if you are from Cuba.
Correct me if I am wrong, but D.R. players don't have to defect do they?
Okay..ignoring all the e-drama from you pansies. Ruiz looks like a 1B but just looking at the numbers he might want to try out 3B when he comes over because he's a good runner.
Last year he put up a slash line of .305/.408/.467 in 52 games before he disappeared and ended up in Miami.
He looks like a prototypical righty masher (.338 BA v RHP) but with speed (32 SB, 9 CS - First in the league).
From that alone it makes me think you're looking at another Joey Votto 1B but possibly more athletic.Quote:
In the 47 (2008) Cuban season, José Julio Ruíz finished 23rd in average with 341. He hit 21 doubles and 11 HR driving 69 runs. He also walked 44 times and struck out 49. He finished first in AB with 429, 3rd in Runs with 83, first in hits with 126, 8th in total bases with 182. Despite being a first baseman, José Julio finished first in stolen bases with 32 and second in caught stealing with 9. José Julio also finished 10th in RBI with 69.
Are they? I don't doubt that they are more accurate, but given the state of Cuban/American relations, aren't they pretty hard to access?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
In the not-too-distant past, even US records were spotty. Universal registration of births in the US only dates to 1933. Lots of American players in the old days lied about their ages. Luke Appling, for example, was listed early in his career as being born in 1911, but when he went into the Army during WWII, it came out that he was actually 2 years older than that. This actually lead to more confusion about his real age--a reporter would read that he was 2 years older than his listed age, look up Applings date of birth, find the real year of 1909, and then write that Appling was actually born in 1907. Then another reporter, knowing that Appling was too years older than his listed age, would see the year 1907 given as his birth year, and write that Appling was actually born in 1905. It got to the point that some reports claimed that Appling was born as early as 1897.
There were also unintentional erros. Typos in records happen, and other things can cause problems. Dummy Hoy had an incorrect date of birth listed during for a long time. In his first professional tryout, the manager went down the line of guys trying out and asked each of them their age. Since Hoy was deaf-mute, the manager didn't ask him, but just guessed and guessed wrong. Hoy didn't bother to correct the error for a long time.
And of course, a lot of guy just didn't know when they were born. Most famously, perhaps, Satchel Paige had no idea what his date of birth actually was.
I can't say for sure on their ease of access, but they are definitely more accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps