Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

I'm not so sure Walker makes the Hall of Fame. I'd have to look over his numeros first.

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He deserves it, but the writers can't even figure out that Blyleven is a top 15 starting pitcher of all-time (I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you Heyman or if you can't figure that out on your own, but I am reasonably confident that there have been at least 1500 starting pitchers in the entire history of the major leagues of baseball, which puts him in the top 1% all-time...easily...but I digress), how the heck do you expect them to figure out that Larry Walker is a HOFer? I do shudder at the thought of you looking over the numeros first though. Please just promise me you won't act like a writer. I.e. he didn't hit 500 HR, he didn't get 3,000 hits, therefore he doesn't belong. Cripes, we'll have to kick out a whole bunch of them if that's the criteria we use. There have been 25 hitters who have reached 500 HR, and 27 who have reached 3,000 hits and some have reached both. So that's less than 50 of the now 141 MLB players in the HOF. Ugh, f**ktard writers.

Walker's numbers and Helton's numbers are oddly similar

I always thought Helton could have played right field too.

he has a strong arm

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

I always thought Helton could have played right field too.

he has a strong arm

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Helton came up playing the OF when the Rockies had Galarraga

Walker I'd put in over Helton off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Walker I'd put in over Helton off the top of my head.

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You're not going to put in a guy with a better average, the same OPS+, and 500+ doubles for his career?

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Originally Posted by rockiesfan4ever

Helton came up playing the OF when the Rockies had Galarraga

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I know, he played left actually.

But I felt (not statistically able to back this up) like he could have played a long time in right field...in fact, before the Walker deal, I wanted to trade for Helton and let him play right for st. louis

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

I know, he played left actually.

But I felt (not statistically able to back this up) like he could have played a long time in right field...in fact, before the Walker deal, I wanted to trade for Helton and let him play right for st. louis

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Ya, I don't know how he would've fared in RF but I heard he made a pretty good defensive 1B

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Originally Posted by rockiesfan4ever

You're not going to put in a guy with a better average, the same OPS+, and 500+ doubles for his career?

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Similar offensive value but Walker had more baserunning value (Walker was an excellent baserunner) and higher defensive value - Helton had better range in comparison to 1B than Walker to RF though both are excellent there, but Walker added extra value with his arm and RF is a slightly more valuable position.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Similar offensive value but Walker had more baserunning value (Walker was an excellent baserunner) and higher defensive value - Helton had better range in comparison to 1B than Walker to RF though both are excellent there, but Walker added extra value with his arm and RF is a slightly more valuable position.

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I have to disagree on the defense. I would think 1B is a valuable position because he not only had a few number of errors he also saved his teammates from errors too and save a ton of balls

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Originally Posted by rockiesfan4ever

You're not going to put in a guy with a better average, the same OPS+, and 500+ doubles for his career?

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The top of my head isn't the best place to find statistical facts.

I'll look up the numbers when they're more relavent (i.e. next year).

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Originally Posted by rockiesfan4ever

I have to disagree on the defense. I would think 1B is a valuable position because he not only had a few number of errors he also saved his teammates from errors too and save a ton of balls

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An average right fielder is more valuable than an average first basemen.


The numbers, using WAR. Larry Walker gets +41 runs from his range and +55 from his arm for a total defensive value of +96 and -89 from positional adjustment .

Helton gets +81 from range and +3 from his double play ability for a total defensive value of +84. He gets -112 from the positional adjustment.

(Total WAR of 67.1 for Walker to 57.1 for Helton)

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Marty Noble is defending his answer on mlb network


and basically kept saying he is the best second basemen he has seen since Morgan....and plans to vote for him next year, but didn't think he derserved it because of two spitting incidents.

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I guess he must have slept through "Sweet" Lou Whitaker's career, or forgotten about Bobby Grich who retired a couple of years after Joe Morgan, or missed out on Craig Biggio's career due to it taking place "deep in the heart of Texas". Oh wait, none of those guys have been granted the good graces of the idiots and had the ultimate honour bestowed upon them by the all-powerful, all-knowing BBWAA. :rolleyes: Obviously Biggio hasn't been put on the ballot yet, but the other two are just two in a long line of ridiculous traveshamockeries that these buffoons have inflicted upon the baseball public and the players affected by the actions of these pea-size brained gatekeepers of Cooperstown. Rave on idiot writer rave on. You'll soon be in China with that hole you keep digging for yourself. Ugh.

So HGM, Helton probably could have been decently valuable in Right?



my knee jerk reaction is that if a player CAN play at least average defense somewhere other than first, and he has a great bat, he is probably more valuable not playing first....of course depends on the total team.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

So HGM, Helton probably could have been decently valuable in Right?

my knee jerk reaction is that if a player CAN play at least average defense somewhere other than first, and he has a great bat, he is probably more valuable not playing first....of course depends on the total team.

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Helton is a FANTASTIC defender at first. Even if he could've been an average defender in right, he probably wouldn't have been more valuable simply because a lot of his value comes from his excellent defense.

And right field is harder on the body...so it's an open question as to whether or not he'd have been able to hit at the same level while playing the harder position and also stay healthy.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

I guess he must have slept through "Sweet" Lou Whitaker's career, or forgotten about Bobby Grich who retired a couple of years after Joe Morgan, or missed out on Craig Biggio's career due to it taking place "deep in the heart of Texas". Oh wait, none of those guys have been granted the good graces of the idiots and had the ultimate honour bestowed upon them by the all-powerful, all-knowing BBWAA. :rolleyes: Obviously Biggio hasn't been put on the ballot yet, but the other two are just two in a long line of ridiculous traveshamockeries that these buffoons have inflicted upon the baseball public and the players affected by the actions of these pea-size brained gatekeepers of Cooperstown. Rave on idiot writer rave on. You'll soon be in China with that hole you keep digging for yourself. Ugh.

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Wait. What the hell?

Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich do not deserve to be in the Hall. They are not better than Robbie Alomar. Sorry. No amount of sabermetrics can convince me otherwise.

On second thought, maybe Whitaker would be defensible. Very good defensive second baseman, solid hitter. I wouldn't be particularly mad if he got in. I wouldn't call him a snub but it's not indefensible.

Bobby Grich though... what the hell? I'd sooner want to see Dick Pole in the Hall of Fame then him. We can't just elect every marginal second baseman who played for a while.

Bobby Grich was a better hitter and defender than both Lou Whitaker and Roberto Alomar. Whitaker and Alomar had longer careers.

Alomar > Grich and Whitaker....at least offensively speaking....can't speak about their defensive abilities well enough.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Alomar > Grich and Whitaker....at least offensively speaking....can't speak about their defensive abilities well enough.

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I'd take Grich over Alomar offensively. Their top OPS+'s (only including 120+), Grich on the left:

164 150
145 141
142 139
138 136
135 134
130 129
127
125
123

and I would rather have King Kelly


;)

and cap anson

Grich I'm not sure about, but no way is Whitaker more valuable than Alomar.

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Originally Posted by dps

Grich I'm not sure about, but no way is Whitaker more valuable than Alomar.

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It depends on the value of their defense. Alomar has the better reputation, but the metrics don't like him very much while Whitaker comes out well.

Whitaker is not better than Alomar, but they both deserve to be in the hall.

You can't judge Helton v. Walker when Helton's career is still ongoing, obviously. Right now it's Walker by a bit. If Helton plays 2 or 3 more seasons, stays healthy, and is effective, he'll pull ahead.

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Originally Posted by haveacigar

You can't judge Helton v. Walker when Helton's career is still ongoing, obviously. Right now it's Walker by a bit. If Helton plays 2 or 3 more seasons, stays healthy, and is effective, he'll pull ahead.

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Agreed

Actually, as far as Walker, lemme try something AJ.

*ahem*

I saw Walker play with the Cards. He wasn't good. He wasn't a hall of famer. Magglio Ordonez was the better RF during that era and the true hall of famer.

What's that? Stats? Pshaw. You just don't know because you don't watch Magglio. It's not even a question. He has way more fire. How many WS did Walker play in? Zero? That's right. Magglio has one of the biggest home runs in Tigers history, which makes him a HOFer. You didn't see it, so you don't know. You don't watch any games.

hahah

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Originally Posted by haveacigar

Actually, as far as Walker, lemme try something AJ.

*ahem*

I saw Walker play with the Cards. He wasn't good. He wasn't a hall of famer. Magglio Ordonez was the better RF during that era and the true hall of famer.

What's that? Stats? Pshaw. You just don't know because you don't watch Magglio. It's not even a question. He has way more fire. How many WS did Walker play in? Zero? That's right. Magglio has one of the biggest home runs in Tigers history, which makes him a HOFer. You didn't see it, so you don't know. You don't watch any games.

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Joe Carter > Magglio Ordonez + Larry Walker. :D

Oh, I found another great Morris comparison: Andy Pettitte.

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Originally Posted by haveacigar

Oh, I found another great Morris comparison: Andy Pettitte.

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man, that is classically close.

over rated. But still a work horse who has been great in their respective careers.

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Originally Posted by haveacigar

Oh, I found another great Morris comparison: Andy Pettitte.

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He kinda fits in that he's the winningest pitcher of the 00's....but....I'd take him over Morris with ease. Morris doesn't ever come within shouting distance of Pettitte's 1997 and 2005.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He kinda fits in that he's the winningest pitcher of the 00's....but....I'd take him over Morris with ease. Morris doesn't ever come within shouting distance of Pettitte's 1997 and 2005.

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for an individual season, sure.

Pettitte has 900 less innings, but at the same success rate, but Pettitte has a tiny bit more success in the playoffs...but both were successful big game pitchers.

I find them pretty comparable.

Pettitte is a Hall of Famer

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Pettitte has 900 less innings, but at the same success rate

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ERA+ 11 points higher....

They're comparable in that they both led in wins over a decade but aren't Hall of Fame quality pitchers...but Pettitte's better by a good bit.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

ERA+ 11 points higher....

They're comparable in that they both led in wins over a decade but aren't Hall of Fame quality pitchers...but Pettitte's better by a good bit.

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That's kinda what I was going for. Pettitte would need Blyleven type longevity to get in with his ERA+ numbers.

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Originally Posted by haveacigar

That's kinda what I was going for. Pettitte would need Blyleven type longevity to get in with his ERA+ numbers.

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he will very likely get in, IMO.

his playoff experiences, his overall win lose record, his world championships....they will enshrine him IMO

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

he will very likely get in, IMO.

his playoff experiences, his overall win lose record, his world championships....they will enshrine him IMO

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I think he'll miss out - and in fact I think there will be a lot of borderline candidates that miss out over the next few years. Right now, I think the BBWAA is split between voters that are basing their votes on their recollection of different players, and voters that are knowledgeable about the more advanced statistics. The former often don't vote for guys like Blyleven or Raines, because they don't "feel like" Hall of Famers. But the statistics based voters aren't going to vote for guys like Pettitte, Morris or others in that group - and you end up with a situation where only the best get in. And then given that there are people on both sides that won't vote for those suspected of steroid use, the next few years will be odd.

I think that Blyleven and Alomar get in next year, but the following year is anyone's guess at the moment. Bagwell, Palmeiro, Walker - they will have trouble getting to 75%. The year after that there is no one new, and then it is 2013 which is a huge year for controversy. Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Sosa, Piazza - huge names but all will cause controversy. Biggio is the one candidate that has both the old-school and new-school statistics, and is entirely uncontroversial. And then 2014 becomes somewhat boring again, as Maddux, Glavine and Frank Thomas are all up for induction.

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Originally Posted by 200tang

http://deadspin.com/5442809/i-really...even-reactions

Poor Bert. At least some of the comments are awesome.

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I had never paid much attention, and had never realized that Blyleven actually made much comment on the issue over the years. To be honest, it knocks him down a step in my eyes. I wish he would just say, thanks, it is an honor to be considered and thank those people that did vote for him. Complaining about Hall of Fame votes just bugs me a bit.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

I think he'll miss out - and in fact I think there will be a lot of borderline candidates that miss out over the next few years. Right now, I think the BBWAA is split between voters that are basing their votes on their recollection of different players, and voters that are knowledgeable about the more advanced statistics. The former often don't vote for guys like Blyleven or Raines, because they don't "feel like" Hall of Famers. But the statistics based voters aren't going to vote for guys like Pettitte, Morris or others in that group - and you end up with a situation where only the best get in. And then given that there are people on both sides that won't vote for those suspected of steroid use, the next few years will be odd.

I think that Blyleven and Alomar get in next year, but the following year is anyone's guess at the moment. Bagwell, Palmeiro, Walker - they will have trouble getting to 75%. The year after that there is no one new, and then it is 2013 which is a huge year for controversy. Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Sosa, Piazza - huge names but all will cause controversy. Biggio is the one candidate that has both the old-school and new-school statistics, and is entirely uncontroversial. And then 2014 becomes somewhat boring again, as Maddux, Glavine and Frank Thomas are all up for induction.

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you have a good point, and in some ways, this could be a good split, healthy to keep statistical anomalies from getting in, and from letting the most popular of players get in.

http://deadspin.com/5443162/presenti...-of-fame-voter