Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
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Originally Posted by
metsguy234
2) Franco is eligible next year, correct?
Yes.
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Originally Posted by metsguy234
3) Who was the 1 person that voted for Kevin Appier?
That's the vote that stands out? Not the 1 vote for David Segui? Or the 2 for Eric Karros? Or the 22 for Andres Galarraga?
Kevin Appier deserved more support than 1 vote. He's better than Jack Morris, for one. From 1990 to 1997, Appier pitched 1,643.2 innings with an ERA+ of 140. He was a phenomenal pitcher in his prime. (Yes, for 1,643 innings, Kevin Appier sustained a level of performance that Jack Morris never reached in a season, even a short season).
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Yes.
That's the vote that stands out? Not the 1 vote for David Segui? Or the 2 for Eric Karros? Or the 22 for Andres Galarraga?
Kevin Appier deserved more support than 1 vote. He's better than Jack Morris, for one. From 1990 to 1997, Appier pitched 1,643.2 innings with an ERA+ of 140. He was a phenomenal pitcher in his prime. (Yes, for 1,643 innings, Kevin Appier sustained a level of performance that Jack Morris never reached in a season, even a short season).
HGM, you should be the president of the BWAA and fix the inconsistency by the voters.
Morris is famous for Game 7 along with Smoltz.
Well, that and 250 wins...100 more than Appier.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
First HOFer to play for the Marlins?
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
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Originally Posted by
cfeedback
Oh man...I have so much to say about Dawson that I can't even begin. I've said it enough times in so many other places.
Suffice it to say that he's clearly a Hall of Famer. Look, you'll find no bigger fan of sabermetrics than me, but sometimes we take it too far. OBP is not the end all of great stats, and RBIs are not completely worthless. Power hitters in the 80s were paid to drive in runs--and given the choice between taking a walk or hitting a sac fly to drive in that runner from 3rd, Dawson would swing at a ball and get the runner home (he's 10th all time on the sac fly list). Irregardless of whether that's the proper strategy that was what was dictated at the time.
I think this article sums it up the best for me:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/...tim&id=4776214
I don't think he's "clearly" a Hall of Famer at all. He's "clearly" borderline to me. OBP is not the end all of stats, but Dawson does have the lowest OBP of any Hall of Fame outfielder by TWENTY points...it's a very large gap in a very important stat, and it's not because he chose to hit sac flies instead of walk. It's because he made a ton of outs.
It's a shame that the turf wore out his knees so bad, because had he stayed in center field his whole career and sustained average or better defense, he'd be a more than deserving HoFer, but injuries happen.
And sorry, but the "You had to see it" cop out is weak, and not a good HoF argument. It's usually a phrase used to justify voting for otherwise unqualified candidates since you can't really argue against it. As I said, I think Dawson is borderline. He doesn't really lower the standards of the Hall like Jim Rice did, but he's not overly qualified either. I don't vehemently disagree with anybody that thinks he's deserving (like, say, I would with a Jim Rice or Jack Morris), but I think he's just short.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
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Originally Posted by
metsguy234
First HOFer to play for the Marlins?
Yes
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
FloridaFan9703 is definitely rejoicing today
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Well, longevity is important, which is why Morris is ahead of Appier. But Appier isn't the worst person on that list. Why is Mike Jackson listed, and who voted for Ellis Burks?
Dawson is still a hall of famer with his full body of work, but lets not pretend like his OBP was just ok. It's terrible. When you have a career OBP of .323, that's terrible. That doesn't come from being an "RBI guy" or opting to hit sac flies when you could be taking a walk. That's just not having a very good batting eye.
It's a testament to his skill that he was still a hall of fame hitter despite that deficiency.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
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Originally Posted by
haveacigar
Well, longevity is important, which is why Morris is ahead of Appier.
1,229 inning difference....16 point ERA+ difference....so Jack Morris has 1,229 innings of like 80ish ERA+ pitching on Appier.
Jack Morris: 39.3 WAR, best 5 years 23.6.
Kevin Appier: 50.4 WAR, best 5 years 32.2
I don't think it's close.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote from a phone-in maroon on local sports station: "It is a travesty that Joe Carter isn't still on the HOF ballot" Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! LOL. We're up to three callers now who think Joe Carter is a HOFer...FML...Goddamn hockey market hoser know nothings. :( :mad:
Then it devolved into a discussion where the host ripped into the fact that Keith Hernandez finished ahead of Joe Carter on the ballot in 2004. Uh yeah, and Hernandez should have gone on to further years on the ballot and should probably have eventually gone in, but Joe Carter was a horrible baseball player. A 16 year career with a 16.4 career WAR. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, a 1.0 WAR/season player is considered a HOFer in these parts. There was even a quote from Joe Carter from January, 2004 saying he was "shocked" he'd been knocked off the ballot. Um, that's because for once the writers got it right Joe.
The sterling list of 2009 1.0 WAR players courtesy fangraphs.com: Jerry Hairston Jr., Milton Bradley, Jack Cust, Omir Santos, Kenji Johjima, Jayson Nix, Laynce Nix, Ryan Doumit, Jesus Flores, Nolan Reimold, and Ryan Church. Hmm...rookies, veteran sacks of s**t and veterans with "issues". Is it fair to say Joe Carter overvalues his accomplishments just a tad?
I'm not sure if we even deserve a baseball team. Then again I must remember that it is the blowhards that tend to phone in to talk radio, but geez...and I'm a Jays fan who will always remember where he was when Carter hit that HR. HOFer? For one huge World Series HR and sweet jacks**t all else? Get a f**cking grip people.
For the record I would have put 7 names on my ballot if I had one:
Blyleven, Larkin, Martinez, Trammell, Raines, Alomar and McGwire.
I cannot understand the love for Dawson. His one MVP award he appropriated from a ton of his peers in the NL in 1987. Tony Gwynn, Tim Raines, Eric Davis, Dale Murphy and Pedro Guerrero were all far better that year and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Even his own teammate Ryne Sandberg arguably had a better season than him once you adjust for positions or they were at least equal. I really don't see much difference between Dawson, Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy when you adjust for career playing time. Before you go all bat s**t crazy Donnie Baseball, Crime Dog, and Murph fans, that is not a ringing endorsement. They're basically the same player: Hall of Very Good, but not Hall of Fame.
Dawson ranks 22nd all-time in Outs Made. Sure, it's partly a reflection of the length of his career, but the only players that he's arguably a better player than on that list are Aparicio, Vizquel, Brock and Maranville. Regardless of Aparicio, Brock and Maranville's "HOF status" and for that matter Vizquel's possible "HOF status", that is not a ringing endorsement either as they are all below the level of Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy. None of those seven players should be in the HOF and Dawson shouldn't be either.
For those that would argue against this post with the limp, lame old "But it's not the Hall of Numbers" bulls**t, save your breath. Writers justify their votes every year with numbers, unfortunately they use numbers like Hits, HR, Wins, ERA and worst of all Ribbies!. It is the Hall of Numbers and it always has been, well except for the wing they should set up called the: "Friends of Frankie Frisch Wing". To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore reality.
I really thought with the 2009 season awards that we'd turned the corner on this lunacy, but today's results drive home the point that the writers still don't know their heads from their a$$es, which is not a good trait to have, particularly when you're in charge of selecting HOFers. There's only one word for today's results: Ugh! As for Mariotti and the infamous 5 who didn't bother to vote: strip them of their voting privileges to send a message to the other writers to at least appear to treat the process with some respect. That's all I got...for now. ;)
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
If Dawson didnt play for the Cubs, I dont think we have this discussion.
As far as sending empty ballots, thats an outrage when you have Larkin of all people out there. Face of the franchise and played for one team an entire career which these media guys are suppose to love and he doesnt matter.:confused:
Writers really suck.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
haveacigar
Well, longevity is important, which is why Morris is ahead of Appier. But Appier isn't the worst person on that list. Why is Mike Jackson listed, and who voted for Ellis Burks?
Dawson is still a hall of famer with his full body of work, but lets not pretend like his OBP was just ok. It's terrible. When you have a career OBP of .323, that's terrible. That doesn't come from being an "RBI guy" or opting to hit sac flies when you could be taking a walk. That's just not having a very good batting eye.
It's a testament to his skill that he was still a hall of fame hitter despite that deficiency.
Any player with at least 10 seasons of major league experience gets thrown on the ballot and rightfully so a whole bunch of them never make it past their first year of eligibility. ;)
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
You really have no respect for your team's heroes. (AJ)
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
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Originally Posted by
actionjackson
I really thought with the 2009 season awards that we'd turned the corner on this lunacy, but today's results drive home the point that the writers still don't know their heads from their a$$es, which is not a good trait to have, particularly when you're in charge of selecting HOFers. There's only one word for today's results: Ugh! As for Mariotti and the infamous 5 who didn't bother to vote: strip them of their voting privileges to send a message to the other writers to at least appear to treat the process with some respect. That's all I got...for now. ;)
The award ballots are 28 or 32 writers that actually follow the game today, and includes some of the newly crowned BBWAA members like Keith Law and Will Carroll. The 500+ voters for the Hall of Fame includes a ton of old guys that don't keep up with all the advances in the game and such. If I recall correctly from reading a BTF thread last year, there's even one guy on there that's never even been a baseball reporter. I think they need to rework the electorate. It's a joke that blowhards like Jay Mariotti have a ballot yet someone like Bill James who has contributed an absolutely absurd amount to the game doesn't and newly added internet members like Rob Neyer, Will Carroll, Christina Kahrl, Keith Law and such have to wait 10 years to get a HoF vote.
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Originally Posted by
actionjackson
Any player with at least 10 seasons of major league experience gets thrown on the ballot and rightfully so a whole bunch of them never make it past their first year of eligibility. ;)
Actually, there is a "screening committee" that looks at all the eligible players based on the 10 season requirement. It consists of 6 people. If 2 of the 6 nominate a player to appear on the ballot, he gets on. If 1 or nobody nominates a player, he doesn't appear on the ballot. Mark McLemore, for example, didn't appear on the ballot this year and never will.
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Originally Posted by
metsguy234
You really have no respect for your team's heroes. (AJ)
No, he just doesn't allow sentimentality and one good game to override his objectivity.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
It's a shame that the turf wore out his knees so bad, because had he stayed in center field his whole career and sustained average or better defense, he'd be a more than deserving HoFer, but injuries happen.
And sorry, but the "You had to see it" cop out is weak, and not a good HoF argument.
I'm sorry, but seeing someone play is definitely a consideration when it comes to defense IMO. Even today the best defensive metrics are a bit lacking? When it comes to Gold Gloves, I believe Dawson's were earned and not built solely on his reputation as is the case sometimes with other players. Seeing the respect base runners showed his arm not advancing to third or home, day in and day out is something that the numbers don't always tell you. Another example:
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Any BBWAA members who aren't convinced should have talked to Dawson's teammates. Shortstop Shawon Dunston, who played with Dawson on the Chicago Cubs, remembers a game when they were leading the Astros, 10-0, in the fifth inning. Someone hit a ball to right and Dawson dove for it.
"[Cubs manager Don Zimmer] nearly lost his mind," Dunston said, relaying the story. "Andre comes in and Zim says, 'Andre, please don't do that. Let the ball drop.' And Andre says, 'That's the only way I know how to play.'"
That kind of sums up my feelings on Dawson. For a "borderline" player, as he may be (I'm not comparing him to Mantle or anything), sometimes the intangibles are the difference. And he's an A+ there. Going into the steroid era eligible players, clearly character is at least some factor with the voters--players under "suspicion" are not getting the votes they should based on the raw numbers. Shouldn't the reverse be true?
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Originally Posted by
ragecage
If Dawson didnt play for the Cubs, I dont think we have this discussion.
And if he'd played the best part of his career for Boston, rather than the no man's land that was Montreal, he would've been a first ballot guy.
