Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Because this logic deserves to keep you as a vote :rolleyes:
Quote:
I didn't vote for anybody in the baseball hall of fame this year. Ya know why? To me…the first ballot is sacred. I think Roberto Alomar is an eventual Hall of Famer, not the first time. Edgar Martinez, designated hitter, eventually, but not the first time. Same goes for maybe Fred McGriff. As far as Blyleven and Dawson…if they haven't gotten in for years and years I cannot vote them in now."
Especially when the ****er voted for Blyleven, Dawson, AND Rice last year, all of them had been on the ballots how many times at that point in their careers? come on! No one can be this stupid.
And that Lisa girl really seems to appreciate having a vote
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kenny1234
I had never paid much attention, and had never realized that Blyleven actually made much comment on the issue over the years. To be honest, it knocks him down a step in my eyes. I wish he would just say, thanks, it is an honor to be considered and thank those people that did vote for him. Complaining about Hall of Fame votes just bugs me a bit.
Uhhh....really?
Every year he gets snubbed by assholes and every year other assholes bug him about it. He has earned the right to be ornery about it.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
And that Lisa girl really seems to appreciate having a vote
Did you read the disclaimer thing? That was a mistake. She has simply NOT voted, which is different from sending in a blank ballot.
I think Bill Conlin's logic is the most tortured. I'll vote for Tim Raines because I think he deserves to be in the HoF, but since he only got 20% of the vote, I won't vote for him in the next 2 years, but now that he's over 30%, I'll vote for him again. :rolleyes:
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I think Bill Conlin's logic is the most tortured. I'll vote for Tim Raines because I think he deserves to be in the HoF, but since he only got 20% of the vote, I won't vote for him in the next 2 years, but now that he's over 30%, I'll vote for him again. :rolleyes:
I think the HoF really needs to look at the ballots and start revokeing voting privileges.
Lisa Olsen obviously has no interest in voting for the HoF .. while suppose he stance is a "no harm, no foul" type thing, And she had basically already done that herself.
Mariotti, despite everything and the absoluelty insane reasons at least in his twisted small minded world, he's trying ...
And Conlin ... His simple quote about his Tim Raines voting proves that he has no interst in taking his vote honestly... The simple fact that he ADMITS that he is not making his own decsions and is voting for people based solely on how others voted should mean that he should be removed.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gRYFYN1
Mariotti, despite everything and the absoluelty insane reasons at least in his twisted small minded world, he's trying ...
Is he? He's challenging the BBWAA to revoke his privileges! He's using his privilege to be an attention whore.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Is he? He's challenging the BBWAA to revoke his privileges! He's using his privilege to be an attention whore.
which is what he uses everting in his life for .. he isnt treating his vote any differently that anything else....
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Best 35 Offensive (Batting + Base Stealing) Second Basemen of All-Time based on wRC+ (min. 6000 PA)
Code:
Name BB% K% BB/K AVG OBP SLG OPS ISO Spd BABIP wRC wRAA wOBA wRC+
Rogers Hornsby 11.3 % 8.3 % 1.53 .358 .434 .577 1.010 .218 5.6 .365 2015 896 .459 175
Eddie Collins 13.1 % 3.9 % 4.23 .333 .424 .429 .853 .096 6.9 .343 2090 751 .414 156
Nap Lajoie 5.1 % 4.3 % 1.07 .338 .380 .467 .847 .128 6.3 .295 1797 610 .399 148
Joe Morgan 16.7 % 10.9 % 1.84 .271 .392 .427 .819 .156 6.5 .281 1796 569 .382 146
Rod Carew 9.9 % 11.0 % 0.99 .328 .393 .429 .822 .101 5.7 .361 1576 436 .370 136
Larry Doyle 8.8 % 5.1 % 1.96 .290 .357 .408 .765 .118 6.5 .295 1037 265 .370 133
C. Gehringer 11.8 % 4.2 % 3.19 .320 .404 .480 .884 .160 6.0 .320 1790 509 .404 133
Bobby Grich 13.6 % 18.5 % 0.85 .266 .371 .424 .794 .158 4.1 .299 1163 258 .359 131
Tony Lazzeri 12.1 % 13.7 % 1.01 .292 .380 .467 .846 .174 5.8 .316 1170 250 .386 130
Cupid Childs 15.0 % 3.9 % 5.26 .306 .416 .389 .805 .083 6.6 .328 1304 294 .394 129
Joe Gordon 11.7 % 12.3 % 1.08 .268 .357 .466 .822 .197 4.7 .269 964 208 .377 129
H. Richardson 6.3 % 7.9 % 0.85 .299 .344 .435 .779 .136 7.5 .316 1151 276 .359 128
Jeff Kent 8.6 % 17.9 % 0.53 .290 .356 .500 .855 .210 4.0 .316 1463 283 .366 125
Roberto Alomar 10.2 % 12.6 % 0.91 .300 .371 .443 .814 .143 6.2 .326 1573 323 .365 125
Bobby Doerr 10.2 % 8.6 % 1.33 .288 .362 .461 .823 .173 4.3 .290 1180 254 .377 122
Davey Lopes 11.6 % 13.4 % 0.98 .263 .349 .388 .737 .125 6.9 .284 981 163 .348 122
Lou Whitaker 12.3 % 12.8 % 1.09 .276 .363 .426 .789 .150 4.6 .294 1385 252 .352 121
Miller Huggins 15.3 % 11.4 % 1.83 .265 .382 .314 .696 .049 5.6 .303 898 187 .353 121
Craig Biggio 9.6 % 16.1 % 0.66 .281 .363 .433 .796 .152 5.8 .314 1796 278 .355 120
Frankie Frisch 7.4 % 3.0 % 2.68 .316 .369 .432 .801 .116 6.4 .318 1528 270 .377 120
Johnny Evers 11.3 % 5.1 % 3.44 .270 .356 .334 .690 .064 5.9 .284 904 154 .344 119
Ryne Sandberg 8.3 % 15.0 % 0.60 .285 .344 .452 .795 .167 6.2 .307 1309 242 .355 118
Julio Franco 9.6 % 15.5 % 0.68 .298 .365 .417 .782 .119 5.1 .337 1346 208 .349 117
Buddy Myer 12.1 % 6.1 % 2.25 .303 .389 .406 .795 .103 5.8 .318 1199 173 .369 117
Del Pratt 7.0 % 5.8 % 1.33 .292 .345 .403 .748 .111 5.9 .305 974 135 .353 116
Chuck Knoblauch 11.2 % 11.5 % 1.10 .289 .378 .406 .783 .117 6.8 .314 1075 169 .357 116
Billy Herman 8.7 % 5.6 % 1.72 .304 .367 .407 .774 .103 4.5 .318 1206 174 .362 116
Jimmy Williams 8.0 % .275 .337 .397 .733 .122 6.5 837 150 .347 116
Dick McAuliffe 12.5 % 15.7 % 0.91 .247 .343 .403 .746 .156 4.4 .266 898 142 .336 116
Ron Hunt 9.6 % 7.3 % 1.45 .273 .368 .347 .715 .074 3.8 .289 746 105 .331 115
Tony Phillips 14.8 % 19.7 % 0.88 .266 .374 .389 .763 .123 4.8 .313 1226 151 .345 115
Willie Randolph 13.4 % 8.4 % 1.84 .276 .373 .351 .724 .076 5.4 .296 1198 136 .337 115
I kinda like setting a minimum number of plate appearances (I chose roughly 10 full years) and then looking at rate stats.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gRYFYN1
which is what he uses everting in his life for .. he isnt treating his vote any differently that anything else....
Yeah, and he's a giant blowhard everywhere in life. He should have his voting privileges stripped more than anybody, imo.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
What about the possibility of David Ortiz getting in after he retires? I was just looking at his stats in comparison to Edgar Martinez's, and they're quite similar. 11 points difference in OPS (edge to Edgar), 13 point difference in OPS+ (edge to Edgar), and if you care about counting stats Ortiz has a few more homers and about 800 less hits (in five less seasons). Plus he gets the bonus of having a reputation as being a great clutch hitter, from the voters anyways.
I've never really thought of Ortiz as a possible future Hall of Famer, but if Edgar is worthy then why not Ortiz? Their stats, at least the ones I can find, are extremely comparable. Of course it depends on how Ortiz finishes his career and if he continues his epic downward decline or if he can still be an average to above average bat.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
I am doubtful on Ortiz, and my first response is, faithful Bo Sox fandom.
But I think you have pretty good points and they are at least worth giving merit to.
I have always thought similarly with Jim Edmonds.
I feel Edmonds would be a hall of famer if he could have had two more productive seasons. But I don't think his sabr, nor counting stats are quite enough. Two more of those 40 homer, .300 average, gold glove seasons, and he is in I think.....so basically, skip his injury seasons and replace them with his highest productive seasons
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YEAH DAAAAWG
What about the possibility of David Ortiz getting in after he retires? I was just looking at his stats in comparison to Edgar Martinez's, and they're quite similar. 11 points difference in OPS (edge to Edgar), 13 point difference in OPS+ (edge to Edgar), and if you care about counting stats Ortiz has a few more homers and about 800 less hits (in five less seasons). Plus he gets the bonus of having a reputation as being a great clutch hitter, from the voters anyways.
I've never really thought of Ortiz as a possible future Hall of Famer, but if Edgar is worthy then why not Ortiz? Their stats, at least the ones I can find, are extremely comparable. Of course it depends on how Ortiz finishes his career and if he continues his epic downward decline or if he can still be an average to above average bat.
I really don't think it's close at all. Edgar had 11 full seasons of an OPS+ of 130 or better, 8 of those being 150 or higher. Ortiz has 5 seasons higher than 130 and 3 higher than 150. Edgar, for over a decade, was consistently one of the top hitters in the league. Ortiz had a run half as long.
A 13 point OPS+ difference is huge, to say nothing of the 2,600 difference in plate appearances. Ortiz needs about 4 full seasons more to match Edgar in playing time, and barring a miracle, that will mean his OPS+ will drop even further from Edgar since he's clearly in his decline phase.
WAR sees the difference as about as large as the difference between..oh..Bret Boone and Bobby Grich ;). Ortiz totals 27.4 WAR with 5 seasons above 2 (which is roughly an average season) - four of those above 4 and three above 5. Edgar totals 67.4 WAR with nine seasons of 5 WAR or better and another four seasons between 2 and 5 WAR.
I do think Ortiz will get support disproportionate to his actual value, though, because of the "clutch" reputation.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
I am doubtful on Ortiz, and my first response is, faithful Bo Sox fandom.
But I think you have pretty good points and they are at least worth giving merit to.
I have always thought similarly with Jim Edmonds.
I feel Edmonds would be a hall of famer if he could have had two more productive seasons. But I don't think his sabr, nor counting stats are quite enough. Two more of those 40 homer, .300 average, gold glove seasons, and he is in I think.....so basically, skip his injury seasons and replace them with his highest productive seasons
I've always been doubtful too. I'm not really pining for him to get in, I'm legitimately curious as to what the more statistically educated people on this board think of his chances, because I've never thought he had a legitimate shot at it.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
while I am on it, how close is Rolen to a hall of famer? If it wasn't for Jones and A-Rod he would have been the best third basemen of the decade. Seems like he has had some really productive years with the bat, while being great with the glove.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YEAH DAAAAWG
What about the possibility of David Ortiz getting in after he retires? I was just looking at his stats in comparison to Edgar Martinez's, and they're quite similar. 11 points difference in OPS (edge to Edgar), 13 point difference in OPS+ (edge to Edgar), and if you care about counting stats Ortiz has a few more homers and about 800 less hits (in five less seasons). Plus he gets the bonus of having a reputation as being a great clutch hitter, from the voters anyways.
I've never really thought of Ortiz as a possible future Hall of Famer, but if Edgar is worthy then why not Ortiz? Their stats, at least the ones I can find, are extremely comparable. Of course it depends on how Ortiz finishes his career and if he continues his epic downward decline or if he can still be an average to above average bat.
Ortiz' body is exactly the kind that's about to break down. However, he'd have to keep up his well above average numbers for another ~8-10 years because his peak is nowhere near Edgars.
Edgar had 8 years with an OPS+ over 150 while Ortiz has had 3. He'll have to have one hell of a mid-late 30 career to even be in the discussion.
I honestly don't think he'll be a useful player by the time he's 36, though.
Re: Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I really don't think it's close at all. Edgar had 11 full seasons of an OPS+ of 130 or better, 8 of those being 150 or higher. Ortiz has 5 seasons higher than 130 and 3 higher than 150. Edgar, for over a decade, was consistently one of the top hitters in the league. Ortiz had a run half as long.
A 13 point OPS+ difference is huge, to say nothing of the 2,600 difference in plate appearances. Ortiz needs about 4 full seasons more to match Edgar in playing time, and barring a miracle, that will mean his OPS+ will drop even further from Edgar since he's clearly in his decline phase.
WAR sees the difference as about as large as the difference between..oh..Bret Boone and Bobby Grich ;). Ortiz totals 27.4 WAR with 5 seasons above 2 (which is roughly an average season) - four of those above 4 and three above 5. Edgar totals 67.4 WAR with nine seasons of 5 WAR or better and another four seasons between 2 and 5 WAR.
I do think Ortiz will get support disproportionate to his actual value, though, because of the "clutch" reputation.
Fair enough, I was just curious :).
Also I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded statement. I think it'll be even moreso if Edgar actually does get in, because the writers will also look and see that they do have similarities in certain stats.
