He's getting my HOF vote if he played 2 or 3 more seasons at his current pace. My important hypothetical one. Right after I recover from the beating I'm gonna get from AJ for not voting for Larry Walker.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockiesfan4ever
Printable View
He's getting my HOF vote if he played 2 or 3 more seasons at his current pace. My important hypothetical one. Right after I recover from the beating I'm gonna get from AJ for not voting for Larry Walker.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockiesfan4ever
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveacigar
LOL. Yeah, if you're ignorant of a player's actual value, you may well think he was a lock for the HoF. And you'd be wrong.Quote:
When Jack Morris retired, if you didn't know his career ERA, you would have said that he was a lock for the HOF."
A hitter's job consists of various areas - getting on base, defense, baserunning, hitting for power, etc. It's possible to be deficient in one of those areas yet be good enough in the other areas to outweigh that. A pitcher really has just one area that makes up 98% of his job - preventing runs....and Morris was helped greatly even there by a fantastic up the middle defense of Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, and Chet Lemon...and he still was only slightly above average.Quote:
If voters can look past Andre Dawson's pathetic .323 OBP, they should look past Morris' 3.90 ERA.
It's funny, with all these non-deserving players that have gained traction in recent years like Jim Rice and Jack Morris, the writers use the argument that you had to have seen them play and had to be there and all that nonsense...yet the writers closest to their careers voted for them less than the writers do now. :rolleyes:
I don't think Carter is a fair comparison at all. An innings eating 105 ERA+ pitcher is way way way better than a 105 OPS+ corner outfielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by haveacigar
Regarding the "best pitcher in 1980's" thing, I did this comparison yesterday on AIM with metsguy.
With a minimum of 1,500 innings, Jack Morris is 13th in ERA+ in the 1980's. With the same minimum, in the 1990's, Kevin Appier is 5th in ERA+.
It's true that 1,500 innings was less in the 1980's than it was the 1990's, so let's raise the 1980 minimum to 2,000. Morris is now 7th. It's true that he has about 400 more innings than most of the other guys, but it's only 100 more than Dave Stieb, who beats him 127-109 in ERA+.
Maybe from a WAR perspective, but from a perception standpoint, I think it's quite valid. Above average players with long careers who are overrated because of their counting stats and clutch reputations. Morris might be more above average than Carter (I don't know what Carter's defense was like), but that wasn't the comparison I was making.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Jack Morris, Mr Clutch, Mr. Groove It When Game Out of Reach:
Code:Split G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR SB CS BB SO SO/BB BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB BAbip tOPS+
RISP 540 3817 3236 1265 805 128 21 91 74 26 406 605 1.49 .249 .326 .386 .711 1248 106 19 42 114 99 .269 106
--- 549 9388 8549 225 2064 345 58 223 0 0 812 1513 1.86 .241 .309 .374 .683 3194 0 27 0 0 0 .270 97
Men On 549 6730 5894 1486 1503 227 33 166 373 142 578 965 1.67 .255 .319 .389 .708 2294 299 31 113 114 99 .274 104
1-- 549 2913 2658 221 698 99 12 75 299 116 172 360 2.09 .263 .310 .394 .704 1046 193 12 71 0 0 .280 103
-2- 478 1403 1206 249 278 43 7 38 18 8 170 235 1.38 .231 .330 .372 .703 449 0 10 17 0 43 .257 103
--3 313 508 410 208 109 18 3 9 1 2 61 71 1.16 .266 .345 .390 .735 160 0 4 3 30 8 .278 113
12- 423 892 807 237 198 28 6 28 13 5 61 137 2.25 .245 .301 .399 .700 322 55 3 21 0 1 .265 101
1-3 300 452 377 230 112 19 2 9 39 11 30 67 2.23 .297 .316 .430 .746 162 32 1 0 44 1 .299 114
-23 220 318 228 165 58 8 3 2 0 0 70 56 0.80 .254 .406 .342 .748 78 0 1 0 19 46 .296 120
123 164 244 208 176 50 12 0 5 3 0 14 39 2.79 .240 .263 .370 .634 77 19 0 1 21 0 .243 81
--3lt 2 out 373 807 594 529 193 34 1 12 3 1 91 107 1.18 .325 .359 .446 .805 265 51 4 4 114 33 .307 132
--3 2 out 378 715 629 212 136 23 7 13 0 0 84 126 1.50 .216 .310 .337 .648 212 0 2 0 0 22 .251 88
Code:I Split G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR SB CS BB SO SO/BB BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB BAbip tOPS+
High Lvrge 468 2754 2423 676 629 93 10 61 10 8 198 402 2.03 .260 .311 .382 .692 925 157 11 57 65 42 .280 100
Medium Lvrge 544 7413 6657 690 1626 269 45 180 13 7 648 1148 1.77 .244 .312 .379 .691 2525 110 24 45 39 43 .269 99
Low Lvrge 547 5951 5363 306 1312 210 36 148 1 0 544 928 1.71 .245 .316 .380 .696 2038 32 23 11 10 14 .271 101
14.08 WPA total for careerCode:
I Split G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR SB CS BB SO SO/BB BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB BAbip tOPS+
2 outs RISP 512 1736 1520 472 341 52 16 42 25 10 207 297 1.43 .224 .321 .363 .683 551 0 9 0 0 51 .253 98
Late Close 279 1852 1670 183 397 55 3 45 33 13 138 275 1.99 .238 .297 .355 .652 593 51 7 26 11 26 .259 88
Tie Game 492 4718 4196 468 1043 174 24 100 130 50 433 719 1.66 .249 .319 .373 .692 1565 86 19 34 36 39 .276 100
Within 1 R 519 8980 8002 934 1955 315 42 205 248 96 796 1414 1.78 .244 .313 .371 .684 2969 156 34 79 69 71 .271 98
Within 2 R 528 11709 10441 1236 2581 403 64 269 314 123 1033 1789 1.73 .247 .315 .375 .691 3919 220 45 101 89 84 .273 99
Within 3 R 541 13499 12064 1439 2978 469 74 319 350 137 1173 2064 1.76 .247 .314 .377 .691 4552 259 51 109 102 91 .272 100
Within 4 R 544 14604 13059 1555 3222 518 86 346 363 141 1270 2244 1.77 .247 .314 .379 .693 4950 275 54 111 110 97 .272 100
Margin 4 R 155 1514 1384 156 345 54 5 43 10 1 120 234 1.95 .249 .310 .389 .699 538 24 4 2 4 2 .272 101
Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.
0.68 Clutch total for career
kind of funny, but in OOTP, you can state min career numbers that can give a guy automatic entry into the hall of fame
500 homers, 3000 hits, 300 wins, 3000 strike outs etc...
and you can add criteria to it. such as you can't be in the hall of fame with a career on base average lower than .250 for example. So even if you had the 500 homers, but only reached base a quarter of the time, you wouldn't make it.
for ERA, the default career era in the game:
3.80
Morris doesn't make it.
Blyleven does easily in the game.
just thought I would share how the games default wouldn't even let Morris in, and it would let Dawson in....
if you are comparing career obp for Dawson to career era of Morris.
career OBP of .250? Who does that keep out of the Hall, Dane Sardinha?
hahaa, I was just throwing out a number, not sure what the default is, I don't remember, maybe it's more like .300....just guessing again though.Quote:
Originally Posted by haveacigar
What worse the fact the Alomar didn't get in or the fact the osome actually voted for Kevin Appier for the HOF ?
Alomar by far. Peeps need to lay off the Appier hate. He's not a hall of famer but he deserved to get A vote. Hentgen getting a vote was worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
Appier isn't a ridiculous vote (though I wouldn't vote for him) - so I guess it is Alomar.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what all the flapping about Appier getting one measly vote is about. Eric Karros got two. David Segui got one. Ellis Burks got two. Andres Galaragga got 22. Kevin Appier was better than all of them. I guess people forget (or don't know) that Appier was quite a great pitcher in his prime. He was jobbed out of the 1993 Cy Young award, and was a very good pitcher from 1990-1997.
Tang must have a vote for David Segui to get a vote.
http://deadspin.com/5442809/i-really...even-reactions
Poor Bert. At least some of the comments are awesome.
Quote:
2011: "**** it, I'm starting my own Hall of Fame for pitchers with 200 or more complete games."
2012: "How the **** am I still waiting to get into my own Hall of Fame?!?"
2013: [Goes on three-state killing spree]
Quote:
I think the big thing holding back his election is how awful he was in R.B.I. Baseball on NES. I don't care if your numbers look good, if your 8-bit persona (avatar?) can't beat the California Angels because Reggie Jackson takes you yard every time he comes up, you don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.
One can argue that since it's the Hall of FAME it should be for the most FAMOUS players, not necessarily for the best ones.