Barry Bonds, beating the Hall of Fame debate to death

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Originally Posted by Rexington

HGM-What was Bond's WAR through 1997? In your opinion what would be a reasonable WAR for him if his progression was more typical?

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94.1 through 1997.

I don't know really what would be "reasonable." By 1997, he had already posted 3 10 WAR seasons. In his 2001-2004 peak, he posted 3 12 WAR seasons and another 10 WAR season. He obviously was an all-time great before any alleged steroid use, capable of producing at a 10 WAR level, so I don't know if a 12 WAR peak is really unreasonable, although it did come at a very late age.

There's no way to mess with the numbers though to make his career not Hall of Fame caliber. Even if you knock off the entire second half of his career, he's a deserving Hall of Famer.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

In my humble opinion Bonds should be in with out even so much as a batting of the eye as should every player that excelled in the so called steroid era. Why? because it appears on the surface that much of the league was doing something or other if not steroids per se to enhance performance. Players always have and always will use medical technology to try to gain a competitive edge.

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This my feeling as well. It seems to be that a great number of players were using somekind of PED. Pitchers and hitters alike. To be able to pick and choose is just too hard. The only player I would question would be Raffi as he did actually fail a league test and was suspended. To be honest I'm not sure of his worthiness even without the steriod allegations.

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Originally Posted by yomamaimontv

This my feeling as well. It seems to be that a great number of players were using somekind of PED. Pitchers and hitters alike. To be able to pick and choose is just too hard. The only player I would question would be Raffi as he did actually fail a league test and was suspended. To be honest I'm not sure of his worthiness even without the steriod allegations.

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I think Palmeiro is plenty worthy...and there's no doubt he'd get in if it wasn't for the steroid thing. The voters wouldn't think much after seeing 3,000/500.

As said. Bonds was a Hall Of Famer even before the steroid/HGM years (allegedly). From my point of view, you can't discount the PED era because as said before players having been using whatever they could use to get better. If they really keep Bonds out, then every player already in should be put up for reelection and have their careers looked at again.

HGM years? :confused:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

HGM years? :confused:

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I think he means HGH hahahahahha.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I think Palmeiro is plenty worthy...and there's no doubt he'd get in if it wasn't for the steroid thing. The voters wouldn't think much after seeing 3,000/500.

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Forgot he also had 3,000 hits. He just kinda flies under my radar for some reason. When you think of the biggest stars of the era his name doesn't really come up....

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

94.1 through 1997.

I don't know really what would be "reasonable." By 1997, he had already posted 3 10 WAR seasons. In his 2001-2004 peak, he posted 3 12 WAR seasons and another 10 WAR season. He obviously was an all-time great before any alleged steroid use, capable of producing at a 10 WAR level, so I don't know if a 12 WAR peak is really unreasonable, although it did come at a very late age.

There's no way to mess with the numbers though to make his career not Hall of Fame caliber. Even if you knock off the entire second half of his career, he's a deserving Hall of Famer.

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I completely agree. I was wondering where he might've fallen among the all-time great's if his progression was more natural. Up to '97 he already proved he was one of the most dangerous hitters ever and the best power/speed threat ever.

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Originally Posted by yomamaimontv

Forgot he also had 3,000 hits. He just kinda flies under my radar for some reason. When you think of the biggest stars of the era his name doesn't really come up....

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He was just very good for a long time. He was never at the top of the league. A career candidate through and through.

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Originally Posted by Rexington

I completely agree. I was wondering where he might've fallen among the all-time great's if his progression was more natural. Up to '97 he already proved he was one of the most dangerous hitters ever and the best power/speed threat ever.

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Even if he just stayed at the 170/180 OPS+ level he had established (as early as 1990 and as late as 2007), he'd still end up an inner circle player and the best left fielder ever. He just wouldn't have had the highest offensive peak ever.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

2nd all-time with 171.4 WAR, 0.6 behind Babe Ruth (who gets 18 WAR from his pitching career, so Bonds has the highest WAR accumulated as a position player...and it isn't close, as Ty Cobb would be next, 12.1 wins behind).

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I made an error here. Ruth's 172 WAR WAS as a position player. The 18 as a pitcher should be ADDED to that, giving him 190 total WAR, not subtracted as I did. So, Bonds is 2nd all-time among position players, 0.6 behind Ruth (which is pretty much nothing and close enough to go either way).

hahah HGM years, he has you on the mind ;)

I am just hoping the writers agree with you, and the year after Bonds gets in, I am betting McGwire gets a big increase in votes.

Absolutely should get in, and I think that he will, but I'm not sure it's a lock. I've learned not to undersetimate the stupidity and dickishness that some writers are capable of.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

hahah HGM years, he has you on the mind ;)

I am just hoping the writers agree with you, and the year after Bonds gets in, I am betting McGwire gets a big increase in votes.

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I think just having McGwire back being involved in baseball again will have a big impact. He went in hiding for awhile. He won't get in this year but very soon in the near future, I think he'll get in before Bonds.

The HGM Era - When crazy stats and super advanced scouting ruled the game. :cool: