NFL HOF Inner circle players discussion thread

You hear the term inner circle bandied about a lot when it comes to baseballs hallowed hall of fame. For football who do you consider the all time best football players regardless of positions? My short list of sure fire no doubt may God strike you down if you disagree hall of famers list would look something like this

Jim Brown, LB
Dick Butkus, LB
Jerry Rice, WR
Barry Sanders, RB
OJ Simpson, RB
Lawrence Taylor, LB
Ronnie Lot, S
Deion Sanders
Reggie White, DE
Darrell Green, CB
Anthony Muñoz, OT
Larry Allen, G
Mike Singletary, LB

who would you add or take away from my list?

Payton... oh oops... too soon :p

Do ya put Marino there?

Add
Johney U as well... He is a must dont ya think?

I dont know football like I know baseball at all... relativly nieve to FB

Jack Lambert, LB
Randy White, DT
Walter Payton, RB
Joe Montana, QB
Johnny Unitas, QB
Sammy Baugh, RB/QB/DB/P
Deacon Jones, DE
Bob Lilly, DT
Joe Greene, DT
Anthony Munoz, OT
Ray Nitschke, LB
Dick "Night Train" Lane, DB
John Hannah, OG
Gene Upshaw, OG
Art Shell, OT
Gayle Sayers, RB/KR/PR
Dan Dierdorf, OT
Lance Alworth, WR
Mel Blount, DB
Lester Hayes, DB
Michael Haynes, DB
Raymond Berry, WR
Willie Lanier, LB
Willie Brown, DB
Chuck Bednarik, LB
Bruce Smith, DE
Ken Houston, S
Ted Hendricks, LB/Special Teams
Kellen Winslow, TE
Mike Webster, C
Darrell Green, DB
Dwight Stephenson, C
Jim Otto, C
Rod Woodson, DB

QB - Otto Graham
QB - Johnny Unitas
QB - Joe Montana
QB - Roger Staubach
QB - Dan Marino
HB - Barry Sanders
HB - Jim Brown
HB - OJ Simpson
FB/HB - Larry Czonka
WR - Lance Alworth
WR - Don Maynard
TE - Kellen Winslow
TE - John Mackey
OT - Anthony Munoz
OT - Dan Dierdorf
OT - Art Shell
OG - John Hannah
OG - Gene Upshaw
C - Dwight Stevenson
C - Jim Otto

DE - Reggie White
DE - Bruce Smith
DE - Deacon Jones
DT - Joe Greene
DT - Bob Lilly
LB - Jack Lambert
LB - Dick Butkus
LB - Lawrence Taylor
LB - Mike Singletary
LB - Derrick Thomas
DB - Darrell Green
DB - Rod Woodson
S - Dick Anderson
S - Ronnie Lott

K - Jan Stenerud

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Future Inner Circle

HB - Marshall Faulk
FB - Lorenzo Neal
WR - Jerry Rice
CB - Deion Sanders
TE - Shannon Sharpe

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Originally Posted by ragecage

QB - Otto Graham
QB - Johnny Unitas
QB - Joe Montana
QB - Roger Staubach
QB - Dan Marino
HB - Barry Sanders
HB - Jim Brown
HB - OJ Simpson
FB/HB - Larry Czonka
WR - Lance Alworth
WR - Don Maynard
TE - Kellen Winslow
TE - John Mackey
OT - Anthony Munoz
OT - Dan Dierdorf
OT - Art Shell
OG - John Hannah
OG - Gene Upshaw
C - Dwight Stevenson
C - Jim Otto

DE - Reggie White
DE - Bruce Smith
DE - Deacon Jones
DT - Joe Greene
DT - Bob Lilly
LB - Jack Lambert
LB - Dick Butkus
LB - Lawrence Taylor
LB - Mike Singletary
DB - Darrell Green
DB - Rod Woodson
S - Dick Anderson
S - Ronnie Lott

K - Jan Stenerud

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Future Inner Circle

HB - Marshall Faulk
FB - Lorenzo Neal
WR - Jerry Rice
CB - Deion Sanders
TE - Shannon Sharpe

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Nice list, add...

P Ray Guy

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Originally Posted by acetoolguy

Nice list, add...

P Ray Guy

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I would but I am uncertain if he will ever get in. Though he revolutionized the punter position.

I like rage's list. I'd add a couple of guys (Jerry Rice, Deion Sanders, Randy White, Alan Page immediately spring to mind), but overall he put down who I would have put down.

Derrick Thomas?

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Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

I like rage's list. I'd add a couple of guys (Jerry Rice, Deion Sanders, Randy White, Alan Page immediately spring to mind), but overall he put down who I would have put down.

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He added 2 of those guys at the bottom of the list :p

Curtis Martain??? My consistant for many many many years...

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Originally Posted by 200tang

He added 2 of those guys at the bottom of the list :p

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Clearly I am not one for reading comprehension. :o

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

Curtis Martain??? My consistant for many many many years...

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Good RB, just not inner HOF good. ;)

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Originally Posted by rockiesfan4ever

Derrick Thomas?

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How on earth did I forget him...oh well. Added.

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

Payton... oh oops... too soon :p

Do ya put Marino there?

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Personally I do not like QB's for the inner circle for the fact that their position is the most by far dependent position, arguably even more than RB and WR. However feel free to convince me otherwise:)

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

Add
Johney U as well... He is a must dont ya think?

I dont know football like I know baseball at all... relativly nieve to FB

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John U would be one of the closet as a QB to come to inner circle for me, Marino, S. Young, Elway, Montana all belong in the second ring of the circle, just my opinion, as I said before QB position is just too dependent on all of the other positions. Have a lousy OL, QB won't matter, Have little or no running game a good defense can make a QB not matter, look at Marino or Elway for most of their careers and fact of the matter was until they (Elway any way since Marino never got a running game) could be made to not matter by a good team.

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Originally Posted by SirKodiak

Jack Lambert, LB
Randy White, DT
Walter Payton, RB
Joe Montana, QB
Johnny Unitas, QB
Sammy Baugh, RB/QB/DB/P
Deacon Jones, DE
Bob Lilly, DT
Joe Greene, DT
Anthony Munoz, OT
Ray Nitschke, LB
Dick "Night Train" Lane, DB
John Hannah, OG
Gene Upshaw, OG
Art Shell, OT
Gayle Sayers, RB/KR/PR
Dan Dierdorf, OT
Lance Alworth, WR
Mel Blount, DB
Lester Hayes, DB
Michael Haynes, DB
Raymond Berry, WR
Willie Lanier, LB
Willie Brown, DB
Chuck Bednarik, LB
Bruce Smith, DE
Ken Houston, S
Ted Hendricks, LB/Special Teams
Kellen Winslow, TE
Mike Webster, C
Darrell Green, DB
Dwight Stephenson, C
Jim Otto, C
Rod Woodson, DB

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Entirely too big of a list for my tastes, I'd drop Art shell, Anthony Munoz was better in my humble opinion, I'd drop Montana and Unitas, although I do love the addition of Sammy Baugh because of his versatility, I'd also drop Bruce Smith, I thought he was always the lesser of the two players when it came to him or Reggie White, I like the addition of D. Stevenson at center, dunno how I forgot about him, I'd also drop Rod Woodson, again I felt Sanders and Green were both better even though Woodson had a fine and long career but he is second circle for me. I'd also drop Gayle sayers, too shot of a career to be inner circle, and for me he is borderline HOF anyway. Love the addition of Joe green, and Deacon Jones, also better than Bruce Smith to me and another reason Smith belongs in the second circle.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

You hear the term inner circle bandied about a lot when it comes to baseballs hallowed hall of fame. For football who do you consider the all time best football players regardless of positions? My short list of sure fire no doubt may God strike you down if you disagree hall of famers list would look something like this

Jim Brown, LB
Dick Butkus, LB
Jerry Rice, WR
Barry Sanders, RB
OJ Simpson, RB
Lawrence Taylor, LB
Ronnie Lot, S
Deion Sanders
Reggie White, DE
Darrell Green, CB
Anthony Muñoz, OT
Larry Allen, G
Mike Singletary, LB

who would you add or take away from my list?

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Youve left off, Deacon Jones, Don Hutson, Ray Nitschke, Bob lilly, Sammy Baugh, Dick Lane --- They all rank ahead of (on your list) Simpson, Lott, Sanders, Green, and Allen

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

Youve left off, Deacon Jones, Don Hutson, Ray Nitschke, Bob lilly, Sammy Baugh, Dick Lane --- They all rank ahead of (on your list) Simpson, Lott, Sanders, Green, and Allen

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Yes, but that is why I said they were great additions:), Deacon Jones, Sammy Baugh that is. I am not sold on Bob Lilly being inner circle though I am on the fence about him. Question to you, do you think the inner circle must include a player from each offensive and defensive position?? I currently do not think that this need be the case, hence Lilly....

Don Hutson gets no love.....

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

Yes, but that is why I said they were great additions:), Deacon Jones, Sammy Baugh that is. I am not sold on Bob Lilly being inner circle though I am on the fence about him. Question to you, do you think the inner circle must include a player from each offensive and defensive position?? I currently do not think that this need be the case, hence Lilly....

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Well your list incuded Oj simpson, Deion Sander, and Darrel Green -- Which I consider Bob Lilly better at his position than any of them were at theres -- Lily was one of top 3 DLinemen ever.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

John U would be one of the closet as a QB to come to inner circle for me, Marino, S. Young, Elway, Montana all belong in the second ring of the circle, just my opinion, as I said before QB position is just too dependent on all of the other positions.

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It has also been proven that you can still have a lousy QB even though you have some peaces in place. Besides Montana being replaced by Young, all the clubs drastically downgraded and didnt have the success with replacement QB's once these HOFers retired.

How does Marino belong in a 2nd tier? In his entire career, I believe only 2 seasons he had a RB on the club run for over 1,000 yards. You take Marino off those Dolphins teams, they are very much a 4-12 or worse team.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

Yes, but that is why I said they were great additions:), Deacon Jones, Sammy Baugh that is. I am not sold on Bob Lilly being inner circle though I am on the fence about him. Question to you, do you think the inner circle must include a player from each offensive and defensive position?? I currently do not think that this need be the case, hence Lilly....

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There just happen to be players that fit the mold.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

It has also been proven that you can still have a lousy QB even though you have some peaces in place. Besides Montana being replaced by Young, all the clubs drastically downgraded and didnt have the success with replacement QB's once these HOFers retired.

How does Marino belong in a 2nd tier? In his entire career, I believe only 2 seasons he had a RB on the club run for over 1,000 yards. You take Marino off those Dolphins teams, they are very much a 4-12 or worse team.



There just happen to be players that fit the mold.

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yet the ravens won the super bowl with Trent Dilfer, and the redskins with mark rypken and giants with phil sims, why did those teams win with such mediocre QB's? (I am speaking mediocre relative to Marino) yet the Dolfins got nothing with Marino? they all had good player at the other positions, the ones that a QB is too dependant upon for success. That is why I call it the most dependant position on the feild. QB's get all the credit for when their teams win undesevidly so, as teams have proven over and over again it's easier to win with an ok qb and good defense, and running game than a so called great QB and be sub par in either the running game or defense

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

Well your list incuded Oj simpson, Deion Sander, and Darrel Green -- Which I consider Bob Lilly better at his position than any of them were at theres -- Lily was one of top 3 DLinemen ever.

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Joe green and Jerome Brown Howie Long were better imho

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

Joe green and Jerome Brown Howie Long were better imho

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Id agree with Green, but not Long, Brown was a great DL, but its hard to judge a career cut short by tragedy.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

Id agree with Green, but not Long, Brown was a great DL, but its hard to judge a career cut short by tragedy.

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true, browns 5 years are probably too short :( but I also think leon lett was more unblockable than Lilly and against better competition...

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

yet the ravens won the super bowl with Trent Dilfer, and the redskins with mark rypken and giants with phil sims, why did those teams win with such mediocre QB's? (I am speaking mediocre relative to Marino) yet the Dolfins got nothing with Marino? they all had good player at the other positions, the ones that a QB is too dependant upon for success. That is why I call it the most dependant position on the feild. QB's get all the credit for when their teams win undesevidly so, as teams have proven over and over again it's easier to win with an ok qb and good defense, and running game than a so called great QB and be sub par in either the running game or defense

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Those are exceptions, not the standard though. If we see mediocre or average QB's winning every other year I would be with you.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

I

How does Marino belong in a 2nd tier? In his entire career, I believe only 2 seasons he had a RB on the club run for over 1,000 yards. You take Marino off those Dolphins teams, they are very much a 4-12 or worse team.

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The famous Karim Abdul Jabaar. And he was just over 1,000 I believe....

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Those are exceptions, not the standard though. If we see mediocre or average QB's winning every other year I would be with you.

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Agreed. The NFL is very much so a quarterback driven league.

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Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989

Agreed. The NFL is very much so a quarterback driven league.

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I hate when people say that. Ok let's go through this simple exercise, name the last super bowl winner without a running game or good defense? Now name how many super bowl winner there are with a running game and good defense and an average QB, I bet the number of average QB's and good defense and running games out numbers teams with just a good QB but missing a running game. THe NFL is only a QB driven league in my opinion because that is who the media makes stars out of but when it comes to wining championships you better be able to run the ball and stop people period.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

Well your list incuded Oj simpson, Deion Sander, and Darrel Green -- Which I consider Bob Lilly better at his position than any of them were at theres -- Lily was one of top 3 DLinemen ever.

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\Ok Gryfn, I am now completely re-evaluating Lilly, I was wrong. This morning a couple of "old timers" whose opinions I greatly respect and plus they saw Mr. Lilly play in person and the players I put ahead of him and they say you are absolutely correct and encouraged me to look back at his more closely career and compare it to tjhe other top linemen of his day , Lilly was definitely as good as Men Joe Green just not with as much hype. So I stand corrected:) That is why I wanted to have this discussion anyway, so people could lay out their pro and cons so thank you for participating. As to Deion Sanders I think he truly was one of the most athletic and dominant corners I have ever seen play and in the history of football. At his peak you did not dare throw to his 1/3 of the feild! Also he turned defense into a scoring weapon when he got interceptions! Please explain your arguement against OJ Simpson??? 2003 yards in just 14 games on a horrid team. Darrel Green was arguably one of the top 3 CB in the league for a solid 10 to 12 year span! again please explain your objections to him? Have any more objections to my list?

its not that all those players aren't extremely good,

OJ had some amzing years, but he did have just 4, 1200 yard seasons, and his peak was great, I just don't think he is "inner circle HOF", Im not sure he was in the Top 3 or RBs all time (Brown, Payton and Sanders)

Darrel Green also was a great DB, I never saw him as dominate though ( he did make just one 1st team all pro) but overall he was a very good DB for a very long time.

Sanders ... He is the one I would consider closest here and, depending on how many you wish to include in the "inner circle" he may be in. I would have no issue including Sanders in that list, but not over the guys mentioned.

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Jim Brown, RB
Dick Butkus, LB
Jerry Rice, WR
Barry Sanders, RB
Lawrence Taylor, LB
Reggie White, DE
Anthony Muñoz, OT

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The above players I can't really see anyone having any issue with

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Mike Singletary, LB
Deion Sanders

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These two are both deserving but i think others like Baugh, Nitchke, Lane, Jones and Hutson should all be ahead of them.

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OJ Simpson, RB
Ronnie Lot, S
Darrell Green, CB
Larry Allen, G

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all great players, but not ones I veiw as "inner circle"

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

I hate when people say that. Ok let's go through this simple exercise, name the last super bowl winner without a running game or good defense? Now name how many super bowl winner there are with a running game and good defense and an average QB, I bet the number of average QB's and good defense and running games out numbers teams with just a good QB but missing a running game. THe NFL is only a QB driven league in my opinion because that is who the media makes stars out of but when it comes to wining championships you better be able to run the ball and stop people period.

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So basically what you are saying that QB's dont matter. So you can win a Super Bowl with the likes of Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell if they have a good team around them? Please. :rolleyes:

Im sorry, just dont buy into your argument.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

So basically what you are saying that QB's dont matter. So you can win a Super Bowl with the likes of Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell if they have a good team around them? Please. :rolleyes:

Im sorry, just dont buy into your argument.

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where did i say that?? What I did say was that all you need is an adequate QB, none of the guys you name are even league average performers much less adequate.:rolleyes:

Every position is important and every position depends on every other position to produce success. It is a team game. There are absolute Inner HOFers for every position with the exception of punter, at least until Guy gets in, if he does.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Every position is important and every position depends on every other position to produce success. It is a team game. There are absolute Inner HOFers for every position with the exception of punter, at least until Guy gets in, if he does.

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that's your opinion, to me i just don;t see it for QB for the reasons stated and you can easily see it in what does and doesn't win championships.

The only thing I see, the QB's that do win the Super Bowl not considered elite, are the ones that dont turn the ball over. The whole team depends on a QB to not do this, especially today.

The QB is the most important single position...look at how pass happy the league has become. How many teams don't even have a true franchise running back anymore? How many bubble screens and similar routes are run per game, passes that are basically running plays?

Now, can the QB win by himself? Of course not. Neither can an elite running back, receiver, left tackle, middle linebacker or shutdown corner. Just because one position is the most important doesn't mean that they guy occupying that spot can win titles single handedly.

Not sure I mentioned it above or not, but the big list I made was to throw names out there, not who I would think of as inner circle.

Mike Ditka might be considered, he did change the position of TE, even if he did deteriorate relatively quickly.

Ray Guy would probably be inner circle to me.