9. Thome
8. Tex
7. Morneau
6. Fielder
5. Howard
4. Delgado
3. Giambi
2. Helton
1. Pujols
As in the other threads, do you agree with the order, and which one's are hall of famers/future hall of famers in your opinions?
Any debates?
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9. Thome
8. Tex
7. Morneau
6. Fielder
5. Howard
4. Delgado
3. Giambi
2. Helton
1. Pujols
As in the other threads, do you agree with the order, and which one's are hall of famers/future hall of famers in your opinions?
Any debates?
Howard is too high
By OPS+, min. 3000 PA, 50% of games at 1B:
1. Albert Pujols 172
2. Jason Giambi 151
3. Jim Thome 147
4. Todd Helton 145
5. Carlos Delgado 143
6. Ryan Howard 142
7. Mark Teixeira 136
8. Jeff Bagwell 133
9. Derrek Lee 130
RoY, an MVP, a hell of a lot of dingers :p:D;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FloydtheBarber
But I actually somewhat agree.
The question that remains, does defense mean anything for a first basemen?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Where in the world is Lance Berkman?
As in the other threads, do you agree with the order, and which one's are hall of famers/future hall of famers in your opinions?
outfielderQuote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
He spent more time in the outfield than at first during the decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
By WAR (on Fangraphs), Teixeira moves ahead of Howard, and Lee is ahead of Teixeira even if you don't count his 2000 and 2001 seasons.
Given that, I would say:
1. Pujols
2. Giambi
2. Thome
2. Delgado
2. Helton
6. Lee
7. Teixeira
8. Howard
9. A bunch of people before Bagwell
I'd need to think more before ranking Giambi, Thome, Delgado and Helton.
The WAR of the players mentioned so far:
1. Albert Pujols, 76.5
2. Todd Helton, 52.9
3. Jason Giambi, 41.2
4. Jim Thome, 38.6
5. Carlos Delgado, 35.2
6. Mark Teixeira, 32.3
7. Derrek Lee, 29
8. Jeff Bagwell, 20.3
9. Ryan Howard, 18.8
10. Justin Morneau, 15.7
11. Prince Fielder, 12
I would be flipping 6-9 of the original list to say Thome 6, Tex 7, Morneau 8 and Fielder 9, if we only did those nine players.
They said the reason Thome wasn't higher on the list is because he hasn't been really active since 05, yet they have Fielder higher who didn't debut until like 07
Giambi is interesting. He has been more of a part time firstbasemen since leaving Oakland. Only one year with over 100 games at first.
On FanGraphs - Teixeira is worth 29.8 WAR, and Lee is worth 31.2 even without 2000 or 2001. With a minimum of 3 wins in each of those years and he is up to 37.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
But I think that it is fairly clear that Pujols is first, and that there is a fairly large drop after the top 7. Bagwell, Howard, Morneau, Fielder, etc. just didn't play enough. Berkman was as valuable even if you only count the last 4 years.
TotalZone, the fielding metric Chone's WAR uses, has a much more favorable view on Teixeira. He's been above average each year except for 2001 where he was at -5, and has posted years of +10, +16 and +7. UZR has Tex at +10.6 in 2008 but slightly below average every other year except 2003 and 2004. Overall, UZR has Tex as +4.9 over the 2003-2009 span, while Total Zone has him at +43. That alone is a roughly 4 win difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
As for the Hall of Fame question - we can really only judge the careers of those over 30. Pujols gets in (even though he isn't 30 yet), Thome will get in, Helton is borderline, and Giambi, Delgado and Lee shouldn't.
And Bagwell should.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
Of the recently retired first basemen, Bagwell and Thomas will get in. Palmeiro and McGwire will be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I'm not confident that Bagwell will get in. He's certainly overqualified, but I fear the writers may overlook his lack of certain milestones like 500 HR and 3000 hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
The RoY, MVP, GG, a couple of other high MVP finishes - and a more statistically inclined electorate will all lead toward him getting in. I don't think he'll be in on the first ballot, but he has 15 years for the voters to figure it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
It would be a disgrace if Palmeiro and McGwire are left out of the HOF. McGwire more so than Palmeiro, but they both deserve in.
I also think Delgado will make it in if he gets to 500 HR, and if he does, it wouldn't be the most terrible selection by a long shot.
Jim Thome will make the Hall of Fame. 564 home runs.