Zomg!!! Halladay is gone and so is cliff lee

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

My prediction:

Philadelphia gets: SP Roy Halladay, RP Jeremy Accardo, OF Tyson Gillies, cash
Philadelphia gives: SP Cliff Lee, OF Michael Taylor, C Lou Marson

Seattle gets: SP Cliff Lee
Seattle gives: RHP Phillipe Aumont, OF Michael Saunders, OF Tyson Gillies, RHP Juan Ramirez

Toronto gets: RHP Phillippe Aumont, OF Michael Saunders, OF Michael Taylor, C Lou Marson, RHP Juan Ramirez
Toronto gives: SP Roy Halladay, RP Jeremy Accardo, RHP Juan Ramirez, cash

Perhaps a bit much given up by Philly, but I couldn't see Toronto getting any less. Perhaps Carlos Triunfel goes to the Jays and one of the others to the Phillies.

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Unless the Cleveland Indians get involved and turn this into a four team mega deal, Marson ain't going anywhere as he's been an Indian since July 29th. See Cliff Lee/Ben Francisco for 4 prospects including Marson deal on July 29, 2009. ;)

Otherwise, quite realistic although I don't see why Accardo and Ramirez would be included. Save Jeremy for another deal. This is a fun offseason, possibly. :D We'll see in the long run if it eclipses McGriff/Fernandez for Alomar/Carter, but if it happens it is huge and the 1st genuine attempt at re-building since 1994 is well underway.

This would also mark the beginning of Phase II of the re-build. Phase I: sign up cheap flotsam to non-bank breaking deals to fill out MLB roster. Flotsam plays until prospects push their way onto the roster...wait, what prospects? Ah, that's Phase II, begin trading away players that other teams value (ahem not Vernon Wells unfortunately) for valuable prospects/young major league players hopefully with high upside that you can control at low cost for some years, while Vernon's contract ticks down to zero...it'll get there eventually right? Right? :p

At the very least this shows we have our first GM with the ability to think outside the box since, dare I say it, Pat Gillick. Word up! :D Go AA :cool:

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

Unless the Cleveland Indians get involved and turn this into a four team mega deal, Marson ain't going anywhere as he's been an Indian since July 29th. See Cliff Lee/Ben Francisco for 4 prospects including Marson deal on July 29, 2009. ;) Otherwise, quite realistic although I don't see why Accardo and Ramirez would be included. Save Jeremy for another deal. This is a fun offseason, possibly. :D We'll see in the long run if it eclipses McGriff/Fernandez for Alomar/Carter, but if it happens it is huge and the 1st genuine attempt at re-building since 1994 is well underway. This would also mark the beginning of Phase II of the re-build. Phase I: sign up cheap flotsam to non-bank breaking deals. Flotsam plays until prospects push their way onto the roster...wait, what prospects? Ah, that's Phase II, begin trading away players that other teams value (ahem not Vernon Wells unfortunately) for valuable prospects/young major league players hopefully with high upside that you can control at low cost for some years, while Vernon's contract ticks down to zero...it'll get there eventually right? Right? :p At the very least this shows we have our first GM with the ability to think outside the box since, dare I say it, Pat Gillick. Word up! :D Go AA :cool:

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Ooops, I was just looking at a pre-season prospects list. It looks like I am right about a catching spect head our way though:

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5:00pm: ESPN's Jayson Stark heard this deal is close but not done. He says Halladay's extension would be just three years and $60MM (starting in 2011), with possible vesting options for another year or two. Aside from Aumont, Stark says the Jays would get Phils catching prospect Travis D'Arnaud. The Blue Jays have been asking for Phils outfield prospect Domonic Brown but have been offered Taylor. The Mariners would also give an additional prospect.

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Agreed with your view though, if AA could deal Wells he would be my hero.

on the ootp forum there is a guy saying that Lee is a better pitcher than Halladay and that he hates this deal. He is basing this on this past year's playoff appearance

facepalm!

Saunders seems like a good fit for Toronto. The Mariners probably don't have much use for him with the logjam so it's a win-win. Gillies also gives them a possible future CF with 80 raw speed and an awesome back story. This year will probably make or break him since AA is the first real test, but I have faith in him. Seems like Toronto got 2 guys who will be undervalued in the market but will still be above average players.

Look at what the Phillies gave up for Lee, and then look at what they gave up for Halladay now, and then let's evaluate how Amaro did.

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

Agreed with your view though, if AA could deal Wells he would be my hero.

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Not...gonna...happen. ;)

Well since LAckey is now a Red sock, it is like Halladay out of the division, Lackey in.

Most recent update....if an update at all

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ESPN.com's Jayson Stark has heard from sources that catching prospect Travis D'Arnaud is also headed to Toronto in Monday's three-team blockbuster.
Here's what we've learned so far: The Phillies will get Roy Halladay from the Blue Jays and will hand him a three-year, $60 million contract extension; The Blue Jays, in turn, will get D'Arnaud and outfielder Michael Taylor from the Phillies, and pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont from the Mariners; Seattle will get Cliff Lee from the Phils. This thing might not get sorted out until Tuesday or Wednesday, but we'll be sure to keep up with the details as they stream in. Stay tuned. Dec. 14 - 6:14 pm et

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

on the ootp forum there is a guy saying that Lee is a better pitcher than Halladay and that he hates this deal. He is basing this on this past year's playoff appearance

facepalm!

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On that note, so is Chad Gaudin, seeing as he threw 1 scoreless inning in the playoffs compared to Roy's 0. I think we might as well deal him straight up to the Yankees. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 200tang

Saunders seems like a good fit for Toronto. The Mariners probably don't have much use for him with the logjam so it's a win-win. Gillies also gives them a possible future CF with 80 raw speed and an awesome back story. This year will probably make or break him since AA is the first real test, but I have faith in him. Seems like Toronto got 2 guys who will be undervalued in the market but will still be above average players.

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I just realized that Gillies is also Canadian. I knew about Saunders and Aumond, but had no idea about Gillies. Seattle sure does scout Canada (I guess being in Washington helps get the BC guys).

Saunders could be the leadoff guy we need this year, Gillies could turn into that. Of course, we do have a bit of a logjam in center field, hopefully Cito (and his successor(s)) don't hesitate to sit Wells on the bench if there are better options.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Look at what the Phillies gave up for Lee, and then look at what they gave up for Halladay now, and then let's evaluate how Amaro did.

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It looks like he'll keep his Drabek and Happ though, so it may be better than if he just pulled off the deal in July.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

Not...gonna...happen. ;)

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One can dream, however farfetched that dream may be. :p

I'm a Jays fan and I have pretty mixed feelings about this trade, without even knowing for sure what Toronto is getting back. I knew it was coming, but now that it has and Halladay's gone...I just feel like the Jays are in for a long rebuilding season.

Only problem is, I can't remember the last time a Jays season wasn't long. They haven't made the playoffs since 1993. Although they've had winning seasons since then, they've never really come close to the postseason. Yah, there's been times when the Jays have made a push for it, but they've always fallen well short of the division and the wild card. They've always ended up saying: We got a five year plan and then we'll be competitive, which has never turned out to be the case. I'm 24, I was about 7 and 8 when the Jays were winning World Series. I have trouble remembering a time when Toronto's meaningful contribution to baseball wasn't dealing star players to other teams or letting them slip into the FA market so that they can get a real shot at a ring with another team.

I don't want another five year plan. I know that's all that's being offered to me, but I'm not sure I really want an MLB team under those conditions. If it was the first or second five-year plan than sure, but the fourth or fifth? Yes, it's possible to win on a budget, but it's rare and even when it's achieved, the team you build doesn't last long. The Yankees don't win the World Series every season, but they're competitive every season.

Admittably, budget isn't the whole problem with the Jays. Under JP they had money but they ultimately made bad signings. Wells and Rios being examples of that. So this hasn't just be a money thing, it's also been a management thing.

At the end of the day though, Halladay left because he didn't think the Jays would win a World Series before he retires and the Jays traded him because they could offer him no evidence to the contrary. That's kind of depressing.

How does this work?

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5:29pm: For whatever its worth, Lee's agent Darek Braunecker says he hasn't heard from any of the three teams about a deal involving his client, according to Scott Lauber of the News Journal. Lauber adds that if the deal is completed, there may not be any announcement until tomorrow or Wednesday.

He also speculates that the Phillies "preliminary" talks with Lee last week regarding an extension beyond 2010 may have left the club with the impression that they were not going to receive any sort of discount from the ace.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

on the ootp forum there is a guy saying that Lee is a better pitcher than Halladay and that he hates this deal. He is basing this on this past year's playoff appearance

facepalm!

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*Double Facepalm*. I assume he's also basing it on what happened to Halladay during July and August, while JP was running around shooting his mouth off, whoring for any attention he could get, so let's take a look at that:

11 GS 3 W 6 L 3.89 ERA 10.33 H/9 1.22 BB/9 7.78 K/9 1.33 HR/9 6.36 K/BB 3.88 FIP 14.84 P/IP 7.36 IP/GS -0.19 WPA

Other than hits, homeruns, wins, and maybe wpa, I'm pretty sure most pitchers would give anything to put up numbers like these two months of Halladay slump. The true mark of a champ is to get up off the mat when you get knocked down and whoa boy did he ever do that in September:

6 GS 4 W 2 L 1.47 ERA 7.53 H/9 1.84 BB/9 7.90 K/9 0.55 HR/9 4.30 K/BB 2.91 FIP 13.47 P/IP 8.17 IP/GS +1.20 WPA

Ah, that's the Roy Halladay I know. Now before anyone talks about small sample size blah, blah, blah or it was September yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...yes, yes it is a small sample size and yes it was September, but still look at those freakish numbers (2 GS vs NYY, 1 GS vs BOS, 1 GS vs TBR, 1 GS vs MIN and 1 GS vs SEA: every single one of those teams finished above .500 and aside from the BOS game, for the most part they put their "A" lineup out there, no playoff pressure, but still... :) ).

I'm assuming that Cliff Lee-fanboy at the OOTP boards was using an equally small sample size, but if you want to look at a larger sample size, Halladay still has him. Am I biased? You bet, but I'm also right. ;) The only questions Amaro should be facing from the angry hordes in Philly is why Cliff Lee? I'd say it's all about the Benjamins baby! Secondly, is the upgrade from Lee to Halladay enough to justify the prospects they have given up, should the deal go through? But as to whether Halladay is better than Lee, yes, yes he is.

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Originally Posted by BTerran

I'm a Jays fan and I have pretty mixed feelings about this trade, without even knowing for sure what Toronto is getting back. I knew it was coming, but now that it has and Halladay's gone...I just feel like the Jays are in for a long rebuilding season.

Only problem is, I can't remember the last time a Jays season wasn't long. They haven't made the playoffs since 1993. Although they've had winning seasons since then, they've never really come close to the postseason. Yah, there's been times when the Jays have made a push for it, but they've always fallen well short of the division and the wild card. They've always ended up saying: We got a five year plan and then we'll be competitive, which has never turned out to be the case. I'm 24, I was about 7 and 8 when the Jays were winning World Series. I have trouble remembering a time when Toronto's meaningful contribution to baseball wasn't dealing star players to other teams or letting them slip into the FA market so that they can get a real shot at a ring with another team.

I don't want another five year plan. I know that's all that's being offered to me, but I'm not sure I really want an MLB team under those conditions. If it was the first or second five-year plan than sure, but the fourth or fifth? Yes, it's possible to win on a budget, but it's rare and even when it's achieved, the team you build doesn't last long. The Yankees don't win the World Series every season, but they're competitive every season.

Admittably, budget isn't the whole problem with the Jays. Under JP they had money but they ultimately made bad signings. Wells and Rios being examples of that. So this hasn't just be a money thing, it's also been a management thing.

At the end of the day though, Halladay left because he didn't think the Jays would win a World Series before he retires and the Jays traded him because they could offer him no evidence to the contrary. That's kind of depressing.

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All well and good and as a fellow Jays fan I hear your frustration...But, take a good, hard, honest look back at the two GMs since Gillick and answer these questions:

1) Was there really a plan? Or was it slapdash GMing on the fly: one move made with contention in mind, the next move made with an eye to the future, the next move made to contend?...Whoa, stop this ride, I want to get off, I'm getting dizzy from going in circles. The organization went in circles or sideways at best. That's all the evidence I need to see that there was no concrete plan, with steps in place to build the team up not the Yankee way or the Red Sox way, but the Blue Jay way. In the mid-'80's through the Championship teams the Blue Jay way was admired and respected throughout baseball and then under Ash and Ricciardi it seemed to get lost in the wilderness.

2) Was there really a concrete effort to rebuild? I ask because I don't see it...anywhere. The Jays were in dire need of rebuilding following the Championships. They were an old team, that after 1995 went their separate ways. There should've been alarm bells going off back then that it was time to get back to the basics of drafting and developing, making shrewd trades and then when the organization has been built back up from top to bottom, sprinkle in some free agents to put you over the top. Instead we got back to back GMs that bore more resemblance to the little Dutch boy plugging the holes in the dyke instead of competent GMs properly building a baseball organization.

I think we finally have a competent GM here, but he's only been on the job for ten weeks. Already, especially if this trade goes through, he has shown far more cahones than the other two combined. It will take time, but finally I see evidence of a plan and that's all I've been asking for for 15 years. I've waited 15 years to see evidence of a plan: I can wait 2 or 3 more years to see said plan come to fruition. :) You have two choices: You can either be patient with AA and let him do his job, or you can demand instant gratification and go cheer for the Yankees et al. I know what my choice is. What's yours?

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

all well and good and as a fellow jays fan i hear your frustration...but, take a good, hard, honest look back at the two gms since gillick and answer these questions:

1) was there really a plan? Or was it slapdash gming on the fly: One move made with contention in mind, the next move made with an eye to the future, the next move made to contend?...whoa, stop this ride, i want to get off, i'm getting dizzy from going in circles. The organization went in circles or sideways at best. That's all the evidence i need to see that there was no concrete plan, with steps in place to build the team up not the yankee way or the red sox way, but the blue jay way. In the mid-'80's through the championship teams the blue jay way was admired and respected throughout baseball and then under ash and ricciardi it seemed to get lost in the wilderness.

2) was there really a concrete effort to rebuild? I ask because i don't see it...anywhere. The jays were in dire need of rebuilding following the championships. They were an old team, that after 1995 went their separate ways. There should've been alarm bells going off back then that it was time to get back to the basics of drafting and developing, making shrewd trades and then when the organization has been built back up from top to bottom, sprinkle in some free agents to put you over the top. Instead we got back to back gms that bore more resemblance to the little dutch boy plugging the holes in the dyke instead of competent gms properly building a baseball organization.

I think we finally have a competent gm here, but he's only been on the job for ten weeks. Already, especially if this trade goes through, he has shown far more cahones than the other two combined. It will take time, but finally i see evidence of a plan and that's all i've been asking for for 15 years. I've waited 15 years to see evidence of a plan: I can wait 2 or 3 more years to see said plan come to fruition. :) you have two choices: You can either be patient with aa and let him do his job, or you can demand instant gratification and go cheer for the yankees et al. I know what my choice is. What's yours?

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+1

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

+1

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You sir, are mature beyond your years if you agree with me. You were 1 and a half in October of 1993. There is no way you could possibly remember the Blue Jays being relevant at all. At least I have the memory of the gradual progression from crappy expansion team in 1977, to sharing the basement with Cleveland in 1982 instead of being the sole occupants, to watching everything come together with winning records in 11 straight seasons from 1983 through 1993 with 5 Division Championships, 2 Pennants and 2 World Series Championships in that span. This market hadn't experienced that before, it was all so new and exciting. Oh, sure Yankee fans will take their 27 World Series and 40 something Pennants or whatever it is and...well, really f**k off already. You weren't there for your team's first experience of greatness and that's when it feels the best. F**king Yankee fans:

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

You sir, are mature beyond your years if you agree with me. You were 1 and a half in October of 1993. There is no way you could possibly remember the Blue Jays being relevant at all. At least I have the memory of the gradual progression from crappy expansion team in 1977, to sharing the basement with Cleveland in 1982 instead of being the sole occupants, to watching everything come together with winning records in 11 straight seasons from 1983 through 1993 with 5 Division Championships, 2 Pennants and 2 World Series Championships in that span. This market hadn't experienced that before, it was all so new and exciting. Oh, sure Yankee fans will take their 27 World Series and 40 something Pennants or whatever it is and...well, really f**k off already. You weren't there for your team's first experience of greatness and that's when it feels the best. F**king Yankee fans:

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Well, I don't remember them being relevent, but I agree that Jays have needed a plan for a long time, and nobody's really ever put one into action.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

You sir, are mature beyond your years if you agree with me. You were 1 and a half in October of 1993. There is no way you could possibly remember the Blue Jays being relevant at all. At least I have the memory of the gradual progression from crappy expansion team in 1977, to sharing the basement with Cleveland in 1982 instead of being the sole occupants, to watching everything come together with winning records in 11 straight seasons from 1983 through 1993 with 5 Division Championships, 2 Pennants and 2 World Series Championships in that span. This market hadn't experienced that before, it was all so new and exciting. Oh, sure Yankee fans will take their 27 World Series and 40 something Pennants or whatever it is and...well, really f**k off already. You weren't there for your team's first experience of greatness and that's when it feels the best. F**king Yankee fans:

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I still remember the Bell-Moseby-Barfield outfield. Fernandez and Iorg/Mullinks. Damaso Garcia and Willie Upshaw. Ernie Whitt behind the plate and Cliff Johnson/Al Oliver. Man makes me want to play out a 1985 Blue Jays dynasty.

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

Well, I don't remember them being relevent, but I agree that Jays have needed a plan for a long time, and nobody's really ever put one into action.

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just like the Mets

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

All well and good and as a fellow Jays fan I hear your frustration...But, take a good, hard, honest look back at the two GMs since Gillick and answer these questions:

1) Was there really a plan? Or was it slapdash GMing on the fly: one move made with contention in mind, the next move made with an eye to the future, the next move made to contend?...Whoa, stop this ride, I want to get off, I'm getting dizzy from going in circles. The organization went in circles or sideways at best. That's all the evidence I need to see that there was no concrete plan, with steps in place to build the team up not the Yankee way or the Red Sox way, but the Blue Jay way. In the mid-'80's through the Championship teams the Blue Jay way was admired and respected throughout baseball and then under Ash and Ricciardi it seemed to get lost in the wilderness.

2) Was there really a concrete effort to rebuild? I ask because I don't see it...anywhere. The Jays were in dire need of rebuilding following the Championships. They were an old team, that after 1995 went their separate ways. There should've been alarm bells going off back then that it was time to get back to the basics of drafting and developing, making shrewd trades and then when the organization has been built back up from top to bottom, sprinkle in some free agents to put you over the top. Instead we got back to back GMs that bore more resemblance to the little Dutch boy plugging the holes in the dyke instead of competent GMs properly building a baseball organization.

I think we finally have a competent GM here, but he's only been on the job for ten weeks. Already, especially if this trade goes through, he has shown far more cahones than the other two combined. It will take time, but finally I see evidence of a plan and that's all I've been asking for for 15 years. I've waited 15 years to see evidence of a plan: I can wait 2 or 3 more years to see said plan come to fruition. :) You have two choices: You can either be patient with AA and let him do his job, or you can demand instant gratification and go cheer for the Yankees et al. I know what my choice is. What's yours?

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Where I really have doubts about that argument is with relation to JP. He looked very promising to when he joined the Jays. He was a student of Beane, the man Toronto stole from Boston. He had a plan to build through the draft and asked only for patience. He was a student of the moneyball philosophy and while it may not have worked out, he certainly came in with a plan.

In fact, I think he had more of a plan than AA has revealed. So far the only thing I know for sure about AA is that he thinks more scouts=better drafts. I hope that proves to be the case.

I'm not really about instant gratification. In fact, I think it'd be boring to be a Yankees fan. But I would like some gratification, I'd like to occasionally be competitive.

Yes, at the end of the day, I want AA to be the answer. I want him to prove himself to be superior or even just luckier than JP was. But I don't think it's fair to expect the fanbase to be hopeful. When you've been selling is hope for as long as the Jays have, I think cynicism is the right response.

It now appears that the Phillies top pitching spec Kyle Drabek, and the Mariners top SS spec Carlos Triunfel could be in the deal.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

*Double Facepalm*. I assume he's also basing it on what happened to Halladay during July and August, while JP was running around shooting his mouth off, whoring for any attention he could get, so let's take a look at that:

11 GS 3 W 6 L 3.89 ERA 10.33 H/9 1.22 BB/9 7.78 K/9 1.33 HR/9 6.36 K/BB 3.88 FIP 14.84 P/IP 7.36 IP/GS -0.19 WPA

Other than hits, homeruns, wins, and maybe wpa, I'm pretty sure most pitchers would give anything to put up numbers like these two months of Halladay slump. The true mark of a champ is to get up off the mat when you get knocked down and whoa boy did he ever do that in September:

6 GS 4 W 2 L 1.47 ERA 7.53 H/9 1.84 BB/9 7.90 K/9 0.55 HR/9 4.30 K/BB 2.91 FIP 13.47 P/IP 8.17 IP/GS +1.20 WPA

Ah, that's the Roy Halladay I know. Now before anyone talks about small sample size blah, blah, blah or it was September yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...yes, yes it is a small sample size and yes it was September, but still look at those freakish numbers (2 GS vs NYY, 1 GS vs BOS, 1 GS vs TBR, 1 GS vs MIN and 1 GS vs SEA: every single one of those teams finished above .500 and aside from the BOS game, for the most part they put their "A" lineup out there, no playoff pressure, but still... :) ).

I'm assuming that Cliff Lee-fanboy at the OOTP boards was using an equally small sample size, but if you want to look at a larger sample size, Halladay still has him. Am I biased? You bet, but I'm also right. ;) The only questions Amaro should be facing from the angry hordes in Philly is why Cliff Lee? I'd say it's all about the Benjamins baby! Secondly, is the upgrade from Lee to Halladay enough to justify the prospects they have given up, should the deal go through? But as to whether Halladay is better than Lee, yes, yes he is.

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great post, you should be sharing on ootp forum

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

It now appears that the Phillies top pitching spec Kyle Drabek, and the Mariners top SS spec Carlos Triunfel could be in the deal.

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If he is oh my! Thats what canceled talks with Toronto and Philly before the AS break.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

*Double Facepalm*. I assume he's also basing it on what happened to Halladay during July and August, while JP was running around shooting his mouth off, whoring for any attention he could get, so let's take a look at that:

11 GS 3 W 6 L 3.89 ERA 10.33 H/9 1.22 BB/9 7.78 K/9 1.33 HR/9 6.36 K/BB 3.88 FIP 14.84 P/IP 7.36 IP/GS -0.19 WPA

Other than hits, homeruns, wins, and maybe wpa, I'm pretty sure most pitchers would give anything to put up numbers like these two months of Halladay slump. The true mark of a champ is to get up off the mat when you get knocked down and whoa boy did he ever do that in September:

6 GS 4 W 2 L 1.47 ERA 7.53 H/9 1.84 BB/9 7.90 K/9 0.55 HR/9 4.30 K/BB 2.91 FIP 13.47 P/IP 8.17 IP/GS +1.20 WPA

Ah, that's the Roy Halladay I know. Now before anyone talks about small sample size blah, blah, blah or it was September yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...yes, yes it is a small sample size and yes it was September, but still look at those freakish numbers (2 GS vs NYY, 1 GS vs BOS, 1 GS vs TBR, 1 GS vs MIN and 1 GS vs SEA: every single one of those teams finished above .500 and aside from the BOS game, for the most part they put their "A" lineup out there, no playoff pressure, but still... :) ).

I'm assuming that Cliff Lee-fanboy at the OOTP boards was using an equally small sample size, but if you want to look at a larger sample size, Halladay still has him. Am I biased? You bet, but I'm also right. ;) The only questions Amaro should be facing from the angry hordes in Philly is why Cliff Lee? I'd say it's all about the Benjamins baby! Secondly, is the upgrade from Lee to Halladay enough to justify the prospects they have given up, should the deal go through? But as to whether Halladay is better than Lee, yes, yes he is.

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What were their splits against lefties and righties? Just curious, because Lee is a lefty and elite, which is a hard combination to come by.

Now it saids drabek and no amount. i am confused. we gotta wait

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Originally Posted by ewing6

Now it saids drabek and no amount. i am confused. we gotta wait

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Doug Drabek?

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

and the Mariners top SS spec Carlos Triunfel could be in the deal.

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Don't think Triunfel will be involved. He had his entire year wiped out so his stock is down.

My guess is that the best prospect we give up is going to be Saunders, although he's not even a 'sure thing'.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Doug Drabek?

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Kyle, his son.

It seems to me like just about every prominent prospect from these two organizations is going to be mentioned by the end of this saga.

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

It seems to me like just about every prominent prospect from these two organizations is going to be mentioned by the end of this saga.

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Until Wednesday, most likely.

Thought I would pass this along from Dave Cameron.

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d_a_cameron Happ, Blanton, and Dominic Brown took physicals today? This deal is crazy. What would Philly have to get back to give up those three + Lee?

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

It seems to me like just about every prominent prospect from these two organizations is going to be mentioned by the end of this saga.

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Yah, I think it's going to be another day or two before we have any solid information as to what the Jays are getting back.

I heard that Phills are getting 2 prospects back from the M;s and are trading happ or drabek.

Now i heard that amount is going to philly

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Originally Posted by ewing6

Now i heard that amount is going to philly

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Aumont*

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Originally Posted by Mlbtraderumors

After going through several incarnations over the last 48 hours, the latest version of the deal has outfielder Michael Taylor, catching prospect Travis D'Arnaud, and a pitcher - either J.A. Happ or Kyle Drabek - going to Toronto, writes Stark in his latest update.

Under this scenario, the Phillies would get to hang on to Domonic Brown and would recieve Phillippe Aumont.

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there ya go

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The specifics of the trade took some twists and turns on Monday. The trade's latest structure would send Phillies outfielder Michael Taylor, Phillies catching prospect Travis d'Arnaud and a Phils pitcher -- either Kyle Drabek or J.A. Happ -- to Toronto, sources said. And indications Monday night were that that pitcher was likely to be Drabek. Under that scenario, the Phillies would not have to include their top position-player prospect, Domonic Brown, and they would receive Seattle's top pitching prospect, Phillippe Aumont, who originally appeared ticketed for Toronto.

The Phillies also would receive one other prospect -- believed to be 21-year-old outfielder Tyson Gillies -- from Seattle in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.

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Did the Mariners just get Cliff Lee for Aumont & Gillies? I know this is obviously all speculation still, but that would be pretty cool for one year of Lee.

9:25pm: The Phillies would only recieve prospects from the M's and no Philly prospects would be shipped to Toronto, sources tell Todd Zolecki of MLB.com

lastest mlb traderumors

So, according to Ewing's scenario the Mariners get Kyle Drabek? Wat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ewing6

9:25pm: The Phillies would only recieve prospects from the M's and no Philly prospects would be shipped to Toronto, sources tell Todd Zolecki of MLB.com

lastest mlb traderumors

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No Philly specs going to Toronto? This throws just about everything out. I don't know what to think anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

No Philly specs going to Toronto? This throws just about everything out. I don't know what to think anymore.

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Sounds like instead of prospects moving around through all three from each other, it's a triangle

Seattle prospects to Toronto
Halladay to Philly
Lee and prospects to Seattle

If that's what's really going on.