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vetoed
This :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
Supposedly it's a pre-cursor to an Adrian Beltre signing. I also wonder if Ramirez will be kept as an heir to Varitek/Martinez, or if they plan on using Ramirez as a trade chip for Halladay or in another trade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
I disagree. Sure, he put up an .800 OPS last year, but it's pretty clear to me he's been physically declining for a few years. He dropped from almost an .880 OPS in 2007 to just under .800 in 2008, and hit at basically the same level this year. I think his performance and the fact that he's been a major injury concern for the past 2-2 1/2 seasons is a clear indicator that he is in the twilight of his career. Plus from what I remember reading about this Ramirez kid he's a really solid prospect.Quote:
Originally Posted by FloydtheBarber
Beltre > Lowell.
beltre and max ramerez> lowell and 9 mil in cashQuote:
Originally Posted by 200tang
:P
Why vetoed?
Seems like a no-brainer for the Sawks to me.
I think Max can hit, I don't know if he can catch, but he can hit.
No Manny, Medium Papi, LF ?
Boston can use the bat going forward
Okay, here's my issue.
Lowell was owed $12 mil. Lowell had a bad year, movement wise - he can't run well, he can't field well, due to the surgery.
In 2010, doctors say his mobility and range will return. He's 35, will be 36 at the start of opening day. If we want to keep his decently hot bat in the lineup, which we should, he can play a decent 3B, or move to first, or even DH - if you recall, our DH wasn't great last year, and Lowell would improve that.
Instead, we trade him. Not only trade him, but pay $9mil to not have his bat. So if Ortiz is really floundering, or there is an injury, that's one less good backup DH/1B/3B. That we paid $9mil to be rid of.
We may get an expensive FA like Beltre, fine. So what do we sign him at, $10 or $12mil/year? So a combined $19-$21mil in 2010 for Adrian Beltre (or DeRosa, or any other FA) and Max Ramirez.
I think Ramirez is good, a decent prospect. But Texas has Salty and Teagarden, so losing him isn't a huge deal - just a chip. I don't believe a FA 3B, and Ramirez, is worth $21mil AND losing Lowell's bat.
Maybe I'm loyal to him, maybe I like him (my gf certainly does, thinks he's the hispanic George Clooney fer chrissake), but we just dumped this guy like he was Milton Bradley or something. If I were in charge, I would've taken our lumps for the contract we signed and played him in 2010.
But, I'm not a GM. Yet. :)
Spread the 9 million over the next 6 seasons of Ramirez instead of applying it to Beltre if that makes you feel better.
Plus, fans of the Red Sox and Yankees might as well not consider the money. The money is there for the players that they want.
Fair enough.
On the money thing - you can't start taking the money for granted. I realize that we're very lucky to have a big market team, but that doesn't mean I want us to plop down $20mil on Holliday or Lackey or every other guy out there. Money, PLUS spending wisely = championship. See Sox in 04, 07, and the Yanks last year.
Money + spending unwisely on a few bad moves = Yankees from 2001-2008.
Money and luck - Red Sox 2004, 2007, Yankees 2009. Money and no luck - Yankees 2001-2008.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
I like how Red Sox fans act like their team somehow did everything better than the Yankees in terms of player acquisition. Combining the 2 Red Sox years, the Yankees were 1 game better in the regular season. Over the decade, the Yankees won an extra 47 games. The Yankees were at least as good as the Red Sox over the decade, and until this year just happened to be unlucky at playoff time. Either that, or you choose to believe in the power of clutch hitting and clutch pitching.
You forgot clutch defensing and clutch base running.
I'm not a clutch guy myself, no. In Theo I trust. :)
I think that most of the moves we've made have turned out good, from bringing on Ortiz, to the draft picks like Pedroia/Papelbon/Lester/Ellsbury, trades, etc.
When you compare that to the Yanks signings and moves, ones that stand out like Igawa, Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, etc - then I tend to think we've made some better acquisitions, given our lower payroll. If the Yankees spend $200 mil/season, and we spend $137 mil/season, and yet there's only one win difference...
Well, maybe you're one of those that believes in straight luck as the only factor. to each their own.
I'll agree that the Red Sox front office has made up for the payroll difference by spending their money a little better.
But there was no significant difference between the Red Sox and Yankees in either 2004 or 2007 - the regular season records demonstrate that. So either you believe that the playoff outcomes are about clutchiness, or you believe that they are about luck.
To put your earlier point differently - Money and spending wisely = good team. Lots of money, some spent well, some spent poorly = good team. Good team + luck = championship.
Playoff outcomes are about talent and luck.
I don't know too many people who picked the Twins over the Yankees this year.
But we're getting pretty far away from Mike Lowell
Im not so sure of this deal ... while on the face the deal will be judged on what they do to follow it up.
IF they are moving Lowell to to sign Beltre the move sure seems poor. I don't see Beltre as a major upgrade over Lowell -- yes he may be younger and lowell maybe injured -- but even injured Lowell posted better offesive numbers than Beltre (106 v 82 OPS+) And assuming Lowell is realitively heathly Beltre isn't hat much of an upgrade defesively (although us better).
paying 10 mi to get rid of Lowell then another 10m for beltre for the next 3-4 years is a head-scratcher ..
Now .. if this is a precursur to getting Cabrera from Det and moving Youk to 3rd this year (then getting a 3rd basemen, releasing Ortiz after this year, and moving youk back to 1st next year) .. Im all for it.
I guess if we're going to ignore Beltre played through 2 injuries and destroys Lowell defensively.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
Let's see, Beltre playing in a park that saps RH power versus Lowell playing in a park that rewards it....
Beltre (Career .335 wOBA)
Lowell (Career .347 wOBA)
Defensively
Beltre (Career 13.9 UZR/150)
Lowell (career -0.2 UZR/150)
Yeah...Lowell is WAY better :rolleyes:
FanGraphs seems to like it, saying it was a Sox win.
Maybe I'm letting loyalty and the '07 MVP pieces cloud my judgement. But having a solid catcher to come into the picture in 2010 is a good thing, with Kottaras out. So maybe it's not so bad. $9 mil for 6 years of Max Ramirez?
Honestly, all Ramirez has to do is provide 2 WAR in 3 years to justify giving Texas 9M. Unless his wrists are completely destroyed he should be able to do that.
Im not saying Lowell is better, Im saying that offesively that are about a wash and defesively Beltre is an updgrade . at 31 is Beltre going to get better? his career OPS+ (which is adjusted for ballpark) is only 105,
But I think that spending 11/3 is a high for him when you have to pay off Lowell too, I don't think he improves the overall issues the team had last year.
Even if Beltre isn't going to get better there's a better chance of him staying in norm with his career than Lowell. I would guess at the age of 36 and coming off an injury year he has a much higher chance of suddenly dropping off a cliff.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
A big issue with the team last year was defense. So I'm not sure how Beltre doesn't help.Quote:
But I think that spending 11/3 is a high for him when you have to pay off Lowell too, I don't think he improves the overall issues the team had last year.
Boston's Defense (UZR)
2009 : -16.3
2008 : 44.3
2007 : 24.1
I don't know...one of those isn't like the other..
Also, even though it's park adjusted, it doesn't park adjust correctly for LH/RH. It just uses the park as a whole. Even though it's park adjusted, we'd still expect his OPS+ to go up in Fenway, hence why I brought it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
I agree with fili :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
You not only dumped salary, but got a good player in return. I would be happy if I was a Red Sox fan
well straight up it would be a fine deal, but they will still be payin 75% of Lowells salary so it not really a dump .. but that part of the deal is fine, but I think the followup (how they fill 3rd base) will be more telling to the deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Except by all reports they didn't dump salary - they are paying 3/4 of Lowell's salary to play for Texas. They dumped a player that will probably not be in the starting lineup, and might not have been happy about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Basically, they traded 1 season of Lowell, probably sitting on the bench, to get a decent young player that might have injury issues but has no major league experience. Assuming they sign Beltre or someone comparable, then this is probably a good deal for both teams - assuming Texas puts together enough pieces to make a run at the playoffs next year.
EDIT: Or what gryfyn said.
I honestly don't see what this brings Texas. They already have a third basemen that's not coming out of the lineup. So, Lowell is essentially a DH for them...but a league average bat at DH is nothing special. Granted, they dealt from a position of depth and aren't paying much, so it's not really a bad deal since it's unlikely to hurt them... I just don't understand what it gives them.
grit and clubhouse atmosphere. One thing it does is gives the Red Sox incentive to get Beltre and essentially take him from the Mariners. Doubt that's the reason they did it, but it does factor in.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
thats a good point. another intangible
I agree, but there are plenty of other DH players you can find for really nothing that could potentially help them more.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I see....well that changes things a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
Eh, he's probably still good for an .800 OPS, assuming he's healthy. Tough to find that kind of bat for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
I remember everyone liking him because he drove in 120 runs in 07
:rolleyes:
His 2007 was an outstanding year...but not because of the RBI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
well ya, he batted like .330 and had a great ops.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
he also played sound defense....i just remember people talking about how valuable he was solely based on his RBI production. I remember it clearly :)
Woohoo! The Lowell trade has been delayed due to his thumb injury from last year. He got cleared from his hip problems but the Rangers have an issue with his thumb. I hope this trade doesn't happen so Theo can suck on that last year of Lowell's contract.
there;s talk about what this changes for the Sox's plans ... But I don't see how it changes them at all, Lowells thumb i guess will need surgery, worst case scenrio is he's on the Dl for half the year then relseased and the Sox are out 3 mil ....
Maybe by that time they need some depth to cover an injury --
-- I think this trade was done more for Lowell, to send him somewhere he could play pretty much full time, as he seems to see less playing time in Boston.
I don't see this changing any playing time for Lowell. If healthy he'll be Boston's backup hitter/CIF. Basically the same for Texas.
The thread title is a whole bunch of fail. The Lowell trade has been cancelled