Featured Columnist Albert Pujols and MLB Must Eventually Face the Barry Bonds Probl

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-bonds-problem

oh man. I can hear the stampede of Pujols lovers on their way now.

Barry Bonds visibly bulked up the season after MacGwire broke the record. Comparing pictures of MacGwire, Bonds and Sosa from their rookie seasons and later in their careers are astonishing; Junior Griffey showed no drastic change in body type. I'll let a Cards fan show us before and after pictures of Sir Albert.

But the basic point to me is this: MLB wants to be seen as tough on PED's without, apparently, stopping them altogether.

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Originally Posted by Lex Logan

Barry Bonds visibly bulked up the season after MacGwire broke the record. Comparing pictures of MacGwire, Bonds and Sosa from their rookie seasons and later in their careers are astonishing; Junior Griffey showed no drastic change in body type. I'll let a Cards fan show us before and after pictures of Sir Albert.

But the basic point to me is this: MLB wants to be seen as tough on PED's without, apparently, stopping them altogether.

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please, while not to the extent of Bonds & Sosa, Griffey most certainly got bigger over his career. McGwire was big as a rookie, but did get bigger as well. Most guys in their young 20's will get bigger as they age.

here's a good picture of pujols young in his career;

http://education.baseballhalloffame....ce/pujols.html

and pujols this past year;

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/spor...in-top-10.html

he's gotten much bigger, especially in the head. take that for whatever you want it to mean....but don't deny he's gotten bigger.

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Originally Posted by dickay

he's gotten much bigger, especially in the head. take that for whatever you want it to mean....but don't deny he's gotten bigger.

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Steroids. Only. Possible. Explanation.

I don't feel like doing it, but I've posted pictures of a young Griffey and an older Griffey on the forums like 5 times before when people said "He didn't get bigger. McGwire and Bonds did."

Getting bigger != doing steroids. Nearly everybody is bigger when they're 35 than when they were 20.

when pujols first started playing baseball when he was young he weighed about 110 pounds. now he weighs 230. only explanation is he takes steroids...

Did he seriously weigh 110? Or is that just what his weight was listed at? Because 110 is ridiculously small.

On top of that, the main reason he was passed on during the draft was because he was fat. So...110 seems off to me.

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Originally Posted by 200tang

Did he seriously weigh 110? Or is that just what his weight was listed at? Because 110 is ridiculously small.

On top of that, the main reason he was passed on during the draft was because he was fat. So...110 seems off to me.

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Well, mtg712 said when Pujols FIRST STARTED PLAYING BASEBALL....which was probably like when he was 10. So, yeah , I believe it. :p

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Well, mtg712 said when Pujols FIRST STARTED PLAYING BASEBALL....which was probably like when he was 10. So, yeah , I believe it. :p

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Ah..ok..I figured it was sarcastic, but I thought pro. Nevermind :)

I wish they can let this **** go, I dont care about it anymore.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

I wish they can let this **** go, I dont care about it anymore.

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It's just a bleacher report article :p

thats the point, nobody knows. Griffey DID get bigger, as did Pujols and just about every player from age 20-35. Is it roids? Who knows? We know that a large percentage were taking them, and it appears they were much more rampant throughout baseball than initially believed. I personally look at the whole group of players from the late 80's to 2004 as roid users. Only way to look at them. The only reason people argue with that is because they hold their heroes to some rediculous holy extreme, and if they were to be called roid users...well, we just can't have that! If someone has a problem with Pujols or Griffey being lumped with roid use, well thats their problem. Fact is they played during the steroid era, and all in that era should be viewed the same because there's no way of knowing outside of self-admission or positive test whether OR NOT Griffey or anyone did roids. People merely use "body size" as a way to help their argument, whichever side they sit on. Roid use, as we've learned with quite a few players, does not always significantly effect body size.

griffey rookie picture; http://zacksportsworldwide.com/yahoo...182313_std.jpg

griffey years later with Cincy; http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/c.../pagriffey.jpg

he got bigger, as nearly all players do with age and development. of course, with pictures one can be very selective. ;)

Albert got bigger, but it hasn't been anything crazy. His legs are the biggest change since 01.

I like how the guy calls Albert a dick in the article :rolleyes:

He is basing this on what Albert said about a scout who isn't in baseball anymore that doubted Albert's potential to ever be a big leaguer.

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Originally Posted by dickay

I personally look at the whole group of players from the late 80's to 2004 as roid users. Only way to look at them.

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Fact is they played during the steroid era, and all in that era should be viewed the same because there's no way of knowing outside of self-admission or positive test whether OR NOT Griffey or anyone did roids.

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That's not the only way to look at them. How about - "If you haven't been caught via positive test, admission, etc., I don't know if you did steroids. If you have been caught, than you have done steroids."

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Albert got bigger, but it hasn't been anything crazy. His legs are the biggest change since 01.

I like how the guy calls Albert a dick in the article :rolleyes:

He is basing this on what Albert said about a scout who isn't in baseball anymore that doubted Albert's potential to ever be a big leaguer.

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i didn't read the article. i don't read that crap any longer.

I found some Griffey weight info. his early career playing weight was 203ish. His weight during the past 8 years or so has hovered mid 220s to 230. Of course, I don't believe published weight for any athlete.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

That's not the only way to look at them. How about - "If you haven't been caught via positive test, admission, etc., I don't know if you did steroids. If you have been caught, than you have done steroids."

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you yourself has said that players should be elected into the Hof and this era be deemed the "steroid era". that alone casts a cloud amongst all players. We, well I...am not so naive as to think only the players who have used have been caught via positive test...so I will cast all with skepticism for playing in this "era" in which I beleive the vast majority of players used illegal PED's.

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Originally Posted by dickay

i didn't read the article. i don't read that crap any longer.

I found some Griffey weight info. his early career playing weight was 203ish. His weight during the past 8 years or so has hovered mid 220s to 230. Of course, I don't believe published weight for any athlete.

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Well, that would certainly be normal for a professional athlete to bulk up that amount over that many years. and I am sure he has added some additional weight now being in his 30's. Don't pretty well all players add weight over their careers? And most are usually faster the younger they are.....generalized i know. But pretty well all guys, even Ray Lankford and Felix Jose added weight as they played.

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Originally Posted by dickay

you yourself has said that players should be elected into the Hof and this era be deemed the "steroid era". that alone casts a cloud amongst all players. We, well I...am not so naive as to think only the players who have used have been caught via positive test...so I will cast all with skepticism for playing in this "era" in which I beleive the vast majority of players used illegal PED's.

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Basically you are saying they are guilty until proven innocent, HGM is saying they are innocent until proven guilty.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Well, that would certainly be normal for a professional athlete to bulk up that amount over that many years. and I am sure he has added some additional weight now being in his 30's. Don't pretty well all players add weight over their careers? And most are usually faster the younger they are.....generalized i know. But pretty well all guys, even Ray Lankford and Felix Jose added weight as they played.

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agreed. which is why i said people use the weight issue to help their argument whichever side they sit on. If someone thinks Griffey did roids, "look he got bigger". if someone thinks he didn't, "no, its normal weight gain'. Who the fu(k REALLY knows??? Its all speculation. He played during the steroid era, that much we do know. cast all players the same, people shouldn't pick and choose who they think did or didn't based upon whether they like the player or not.

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Basically you are saying they are guilty until proven innocent, HGM is saying they are innocent until proven guilty.

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why are they guilty? why hold roids in a negative light? we don't know who or what they did, how much and why. again, all we know is they played during the steroid era, an era which it appears a large percentage were likely juicing to some extent. if it were found griffey had a positive test, would that change your perception of him? because he was doing sometihng nearly everyone was? i should hope not.

all who played during that era are the same. people try to make there heroes "better" than others by defending them as "playing clean". its all BS.

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Originally Posted by dickay

you yourself has said that players should be elected into the Hof

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Yes...

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Originally Posted by dickay

and this era be deemed the "steroid era".

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I haven't said that it "should be deemed the steroid era." That's just what it has been deemed.

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Originally Posted by dickay

that alone casts a cloud amongst all players.

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I agree....which is why if you haven't been caught, I won't make a judgment one way or the other. Maybe you did do steroids, maybe you didn't. I don't know.

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Originally Posted by dickay

We, well I...am not so naive as to think only the players who have used have been caught via positive test. so I will cast all with skepticism for playing in this "era" in which I beleive the vast majority of players used illegal PED's.

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Agreed. But I'm also not so naive as to think that every player in the era did steroids...so, I'm not going to assume that all players did. I'm content with saying "I don't know."

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Don't pretty well all players add weight over their careers?

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Pretty much all people add weight over their lives.

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Originally Posted by dickay

why are they guilty? why hold roids in a negative light? we don't know who or what they did, how much and why. again, all we know is they played during the steroid era, an era which it appears a large percentage were likely juicing to some extent. if it were found griffey had a positive test, would that change your perception of him? because he was doing sometihng nearly everyone was? i should hope not.

all who played during that era are the same. people try to make there heroes "better" than others by defending them as "playing clean". its all BS.

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I agree with all this. The only thing you've said that I disagree with is:

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Originally Posted by dickay

I personally look at the whole group of players from the late 80's to 2004 as roid users. Only way to look at them.

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I don't look at them as anything. They're just baseball players. If they've been caught using steroids, than I know they've done it...doesn't change my perception of them. If they haven't been caught, I don't know if they've done steroids. A good amount of those guys probably did, and a good amount probably didn't. I won't assume any player didn't do steroids, but I also won't assume that any player did do steroids.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Well, mtg712 said when Pujols FIRST STARTED PLAYING BASEBALL....which was probably like when he was 10. So, yeah , I believe it. :p

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see you got it.

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I don't look at them as anything. They're just baseball players. If they've been caught using steroids, than I know they've done it...doesn't change my perception of them. If they haven't been caught, I don't know if they've done steroids. A good amount of those guys probably did, and a good amount probably didn't. I won't assume any player didn't do steroids, but I also won't assume that any player did do steroids.

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thats a fair way of looking at it. i suppose my view is more glass half empty i guess. :confused:

i look at it in the same light, but i believe i don't hide from the fact that as you admit, a good amount DID take it thus we are in an era with bloated stats as a result. I just paint all who play in this era in the light of users, or players that participated in the "steroid era". No way we'll ever know who did or didn't do what. We do know much of the stats are bloated as a result of PED usage.

Looking at ALL as PED users doesn't put them in any different light than you do if you view NONE as PED users. I just can't compare this era with other eras where, to our knowledge, PED use wasn't nearly as prevalent. Some take issue with looking at all as PED users because, 'god forbid their heroes be called users' while those same people go ahead and without evidence paint others as users. Its wrong. If you're going to speculate on one, you must speculate on all IMO.

How do you prove a random someone innocent of taking steroids?

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Originally Posted by dickay

i look at it in the same light, but i believe i don't hide from the fact that as you admit, a good amount DID take it thus we are in an era with bloated stats as a result. I just paint all who play in this era in the light of users, or players that participated in the "steroid era". No way we'll ever know who did or didn't do what. We do know much of the stats are bloated as a result of PED usage.

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We don't KNOW that. All we KNOW is that the average level of offense in this era is high. We don't KNOW the causes. Did steroid use play a role in it? Possibly....but even if it did, there's basically no chance that it was the only cause. Around 1993/1994, offensive levels shot up leaguewide. Unless you want to believe that all of a sudden a ton of players around the league decided to do steroids one offseason, there's something else at work there...perhaps a "juiced ball."

Just as the "stats are bloated" in the modern era, the stats were "shrunk" in the 1960's. This era is not unique in that there are characteristics of it that affected the run environment. All players of every era must be evaluated in the context in which they played...the reasons are really secondary and only matter when it comes to the story, not the evaluation.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

We don't KNOW that. All we KNOW is that the average level of offense in this era is high. We don't KNOW the causes. Did steroid use play a role in it? Possibly....but even if it did, there's basically no chance that it was the only cause. Around 1993/1994, offensive levels shot up leaguewide. Unless you want to believe that all of a sudden a ton of players around the league decided to do steroids one offseason, there's something else at work there...perhaps a "juiced ball."

Just as the "stats are bloated" in the modern era, the stats were "shrunk" in the 1960's. This era is not unique in that there are characteristics of it that affected the run environment. All players of every era must be evaluated in the context in which they played...the reasons are really secondary and only matter when it comes to the story, not the evaluation.

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agree with most. i never said PED use was the only reason numbers are bloated, but yes I do believe they are one of the factors. I think the decline in power numbers post anabolic steroid testing helps to prove that some of the increase was PED related. Sure you could always play conspirator and claim the ball was changed again...but i don't buy it. I think there are still PED's in use, just not as many and many used are not as effective as those that can be tested for. Thats speculative though, i agree.