he won 1 gold glove...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexington
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he won 1 gold glove...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexington
I have suspisions that there actually may be no players voted in this year. The writers view things differently than many here do. Alomar will not be viewed as a "1st ballot" HOF. Blyleven is in the Jim Rice mode, he'll get in, but maybe not yet. McGwire might as well be Pete Rose as far as many writers are concerned. Unless some band wagon starts for Larkin or Trammell, they just arn't drawing enough attention.
Hope I'm wrong.
Alomar and Larkin have very impressive resumes of stuff the writers love to see. Alomar has 12 All Star Games and 10 Gold Gloves. Larkin has 12 All Star Games, 3 Gold Gloves and an MVP. I think they both may have to wait a year or so because as much as writers like to trumpet how much they appreciate the little things and all those stupid statheads just like to wait for the 3 run homer, when it comes down to actually voting for things, those same writers fall in love with HR and RBI and don't appreciate the guys that do everything well without having one standout skill....but I think they both will eventually get in.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldYankFan
I also think both Dawson and Blyleven will make it in this year.
I vote Alomar Mattingly and Smith
I wouldn't be surprised if no-one makes it this year, but I also wouldn't be surprised if as many as 4 guys make it. Actually, there are more than that that may have a decent chance, but the way the HoF vote is conducted, structurally it's hard to get 4 guys elected in a year, much less 5 or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
vote Crime Dog!!
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceDig
McGriff was a great player, and he had a long streak of 30 homer seasons. But I don't think he is really that close to being a hall of famer.
He has the same # of HRs as Lou Gehrig. 'Nuff said. Plus...was clutch RBI-man, reliable with the glove, had a nice mustace, was a great TV commercial pitchman, and the face of the Blue Jays in the late 1980s
I also voted for Robby Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Dale Murphy, The Hawk Andre Dawson, Barry Larkin, and Edgar Martinez.
Dave Sequi and Shane Reynolds, really? How does one even get on the ballot?
You can't be serious here...Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceDig
By being a regular for 10+ years in MLB.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceDig
Let me preface this by saying I'm a day one, die-hard Blue Jay fan and a big fan of Fred McGriff, probably not as big of a fan as Doris Gillick (the GM Pat's wife), who left multiple messages on Pat's hotel room phone at the Winter Meetings in 1990, expressing her displeasure/downright disgust/anger, the day he was traded with Tony Fernandez for Joe Carter and Roberto Alomar in one of the greatest trades in baseball history. But, he ain't no Hall of Famer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceDig
I'm pretty sure you meant to put some sort of smilie to indicate sarcasm with the Gehrig comment, but you didn't, so let me reassure you that he's not fit to hold Lou Gehrig's jockstrap, much less hold a similar place in baseball history. There's so much more to a player's overall (offense plus defense; BTW every metric I can find says McGriff was a below average defensive 1B, so this actually pulls his value down) value than how many HR he hit over his career, especially in this era of spiked HR totals.
To use a quick and dirty comparison of a player's value to his team, currently Lou Gehrig holds down the number 13 position in all-time WAR (Wins Above Replacement) amongst position players. He is number 1 among 1B, which is the position Crime Dog played. In 139 years worth of baseball, he's arguably the best 1B and the 13th best position player. McGriff is the number 164 position player in all-time WAR. Carlos Beltran blew past him this year in his 12th season (McGriff played 19). Next year Ichiro will leave him in the dust in his 10th season, on his way to Cooperstown. He's number 26 among his fellow 1B all-time. If we remove guys who played 1B more games than any other position, but did not play more than 50% of their games there like Rod Carew, Pete Rose, Jim Thome, Ernie Banks, Harmon Killebrew, and Dick Allen (Allen deserves induction way more than McGriff and he's still not in), he still only gets up to number 20. Alan Trammell can't buy a vote and he's number 10 in WAR at SS all-time, and some folks are getting upset over McGriff not being in. :rolleyes: George Sisler's (2800+ hits, most of them singles) and Tony Perez' (ugh, don't get me started) inductions (both Hall of Very Gooders, as is McGriff) don't justify making another mistake by putting Freddy in.
I always love it when people pull the whole: "...was a clutch RBI guy" statement out of nowhere, without taking a few minutes to look up whether it's true or not. Sadly, it's not true with McGriff. In order to be a great clutch hitter, you've got to "get a hit when it counts". His five highest batting averages came: 1) With a runner on 1st 2) In all 1 out situations 3) In situations where the margin was greater than 4 runs 4) In all 0 out situations, and 5) With men on, though as we'll soon see most of this was due to how well he hit with a runner at 1B. His five lowest batting averages occurred: 1) In 2 out RISP situations 2) In all 2 out situations 3) In "Late + Close" situations 4) With RISP and 5) With the bases empty. Not exactly the profile of a clutch hitter. He had 3 OBP splits of .395 or better: 1) With RISP 2) With 2 out with RISP, and 3) With Men On. In other words he passed the baton to the next guy in situations where getting a hit is more advantageous to the team. Finally using ISOP (Isolated Power = SLG minus AVG), we see that his largest power output happened when: 1) The margin was greater than 4 runs 2) All 0 out situations 3) All 1 out situations 4) With a runner on 1B and 5) With the bases empty. His lowest ISOP scores occurred: 1) In 2 out RISP situations 2) In Late + Close situations 3) In all 2 out situations 4) In RISP situations and 5) With men on. That ain't clutch.
Freddy may have been the face of the Blue Jays from 1988 through 1990, but his career had two distinct halves to it. To wit:
First 9 years: 36.7 WAR (4.1 WAR/year: all-star level: put up 15+ years of that and Cooperstown is yours)
Final 10 years: 13.8 WAR (1.4 WAR/year: not very valuable at all)
Looks to me like Freddy held on way too long, chasing down that magical number 500 HR and in the process hurt his teams. If you'd asked me after 1994, whether he was on a HOF pace, I'd have said definitely, but for the body of work from 1986-2004, definitely not.
And if he had 7 more homers, would he be in? I agree with AJ, as I said, I simply cannot see him in Cooperstown, and I don't see the writers voting him in.
Some could say so, and sadly, I think 7 more homers would have put him in there. But I think AJ just put me over the edge on not believing he is a hall of famer. Thank you.
If he had 7 more home runs, I'd say he'd be more likely to actually make it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
It wouldn't change my opinion that he's squarely in the "Hall of Very Good" though.
I agree, I am saying that I think he would make it if he had 7, doesn't make him more deservingQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
That sealed it for me. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceDig
The reason I want McGriff in is consistency. If you can put up great-to-above average numbers for 17 years, then you should be in, IMO.