Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
And they call it...Yankee love.
Look OYF, if I want that kind of analysis, I'll find a way to get YES network up here. Brutal. The margin between the two teams is actually razor thin, and if you were capable of removing your Yankee navy blue shades you'd be able to see that.
...However, the question was not "Which team was better?". The question was "Which team would you rather start a franchise with?" and that makes the gap widen in favour of the Yankees, due to as HGM mentioned their extremely solid and young players at the core, or up the middle, positions.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
The 2001 Mariners also have to be in that discussion...
The Yankees bullpen wasn't that much different than the Mariners one, honestly. Obviously Mariano Rivera makes the Yankees one better, but the Yankees had 3 primary guys - Rivera, Mendoza and Stanton. Rivera was obviously amazing. Mendoza was good and soaked up a ton of innings and also started. Stanton was not good. Graeme Lloyd did a superb job as a lefty specialist, but only threw 37 innings. Jeff Nelson, Darren Holmes and Mike Buddie were the other relievers to throw 40+ innings. Nelson and Holmes were fine but nothing special. Buddie was poor.
The Mariners primary relievers were Kazuhiro Sasaki, Arthur Rhodes, Jose Panigua, Ryan Franklin, Jeff Nelson and Norm Charlton. Only Jose Panigua was poor. Rhodes was awesome, Sasaki was strong. Nelson, Charlton and Franklin were fine.
Really, they shape up pretty much equal except for Rivera who obviously pushes the Yankees ahead. I can't see the Mariners bullpen as below average no matter how hard I try.
The reason this question is so easy is simply because the core of the 1998 Yankees were all mainly in their 20's. The Mariners were an older squad. So, obviously, the Yankees would be the pick if you were looking to 'start a franchise.' Hindsight, of course, confirms that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
actionjackson
And they call it...Yankee love.
Look OYF, if I want that kind of analysis, I'll find a way to get YES network up here. Brutal. The margin between the two teams is actually razor thin, and if you were capable of removing your Yankee navy blue shades you'd be able to see that.
...However, the question was not "Which team was better?". The question was "Which team would you rather start a franchise with?" and that makes the gap widen in favour of the Yankees, due to as HGM mentioned their extremely solid and young players at the core, or up the middle, positions.
They shape up equal except for Rivera is kind of like saying "Other than that how was the play Mrs. Lincoln."
And a Razor thin Margin? Well, if you disreguard the post season sure. The 98 Yanks, of course, won a World Championship and the 2001 Mariners lost in the League Championship Series to... oh yeah... the New York Yankees in 5 games.
A better margin is what happened in the succeeding years to each team. The Yanks won World Series in 99, 2000, and lost the Series in seven games in 2001. The most dominate streak in recent history.
The Mariners...2002 3rd place in their division, 10 games back, 2003 2nd place 3 GB, 2004 last place below .500.
I'll grant you the teams don't stay the same, but many of the Mariners players had career years in 01, their best player in 01, I'd say Brett Boone. Look were his career went in compared to the best player on the '98 Yanks, now that's a tougher call, Williams, Jeter or T. Martinez., None of the three had a flame out career like Boone.
I'm not going to pick this apart, but glossing over Mendoza as a guy who soaked up innings? He was 10 and 2 that year. Those were not all "Vulture" wins.
114 wins, the 54 Indians, the 98 Yankeess, the 01 Marniers. Just one came home with a trophy, thats why the 98 Yanks are in the discussion for best team ever and the Mariners and Indians are usually not.
And please don't confuse me with some bandwagon Yankee Fan. I became a fan in the late sixties when they stunk, bad. I guess I put a lot more emphasis on post season performance than others do.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OldYankFan
They shape up equal except for Rivera is kind of like saying "Other than that how was the play Mrs. Lincoln."
You said the Mariners pen was below average. I was pointing out that they weren't. They both had solid pens. The Yankees had Rivera which made their pen better. That's all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldYanksFan
And a Razor thin Margin? Well, if you disreguard the post season sure. The 98 Yanks, of course, won a World Championship and the 2001 Mariners lost in the League Championship Series to... oh yeah... the New York Yankees in 5 games.
A better margin is what happened in the succeeding years to each team. The Yanks won World Series in 99, 2000, and lost the Series in seven games in 2001. The most dominate streak in recent history.
The Mariners...2002 3rd place in their division, 10 games back, 2003 2nd place 3 GB, 2004 last place below .500.
I'll grant you the teams don't stay the same, but many of the Mariners players had career years in 01, their best player in 01, I'd say Brett Boone. Look were his career went in compared to the best player on the '98 Yanks, now that's a tougher call, Williams, Jeter or T. Martinez., None of the three had a flame out career like Boone.
This is all just other ways of stating the correct answer is that the 1998 Yankees would be the better choice to start a franchise with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldYanksFan
114 wins, the 54 Indians, the 98 Yankeess, the 01 Marniers. Just one came home with a trophy, thats why the 98 Yanks are in the discussion for best team ever and the Mariners and Indians are usually not.
Usually the Mariners and Indians ARE in the discussion...at least every discussion I've ever seen .
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Usually the Mariners and Indians ARE in the discussion...at least every discussion I've ever seen .
They may be in the Top 10, but Best? If we stop at 162 games, or (154) the 54 Indians have the best record ever. If we don't stop there. But why would anyone stop there? Those teams all didn't stop. So if we keep going too they have no way to top the 98 Yanks. 125 wins. No other team has done that.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OldYankFan
They may be in the Top 10, but Best? If we stop at 162 games, or (154) the 54 Indians have the best record ever. If we don't stop there. But why would anyone stop there? Those teams all didn't stop. So if we keep going too they have no way to top the 98 Yanks. 125 wins. No other team has done that.
Ok. The discussion of what the best team based on overall talent is is a bit more in-depth than just looking at the wins. I'll concede that the 1998 Yankees were the most successful team of all time, sure. Best, though? I don't know. Maybe. When it gets down to the best teams ever, it's so close that it can easily go either way.
Look at it this way - who was the most successful team in 2006? The Cardinals. They won the World Series. Were they the best team that year? Absolutely not. Apply this to an all-time discussion. The Yankees in 1998 were the most successful team ever. Were they the best team ever? Possibly.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Ok. The discussion of what the best team based on overall talent is is a bit more in-depth than just looking at the wins. I'll concede that the 1998 Yankees were the most successful team of all time, sure. Best, though? I don't know. Maybe. When it gets down to the best teams ever, it's so close that it can easily go either way.
Look at it this way - who was the most successful team in 2006? The Cardinals. They won the World Series. Were they the best team that year? Absolutely not. Apply this to an all-time discussion. The Yankees in 1998 were the most successful team ever. Were they the best team ever? Possibly.
I didn't say they were the best. Let us consider the Cubs of 1906 and 1907, the 39 Yankees, the 27 Yankees, the 32 Yankees, the Cincinati Reds 75. the 29 Athletics, the 1910 Giants, the 1902 Pirates, the 1970 Orioles. A great Regular season and a great post season together gets a team into the discussion.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OldYankFan
I didn't say they were the best. Let us consider the Cubs of 1906 and 1907, the 39 Yankees, the 27 Yankees, the 32 Yankees, the Cincinati Reds 75. the 29 Athletics, the 1910 Giants, the 1902 Pirates. A great Regular season and a great post season together gets a team into the discussion.
There are a lot of teams in the discussion, which is why I think it's really an unanswerable question. I don't think that the 1954 Indians losing 4 games in October means they can't be included. They were a fantastic team. Losing 4 games doesn't make them worse than some other team from a completely different year. That would be pretty poor, lazy evaluation.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OldYankFan
good job. I like the last line best.
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Is there a truly conclusive answer for the question of best baseball team ever? No. It depends on what one considers important to a great team. Everyone's answer is different.
Good job proving his point though.
Edit : After actually reading through the article, I dislike the analysis a lot. I personally feel the post-season should be taken completely out of it, but the way they weigh it is just weird. Also, I dislike the way he does run scoring. Using ERA as a way to determine defense doesn't work.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
What tang said, and....plus...all my point is is that they're "in the discussion."
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
What tang said, and....plus...all my point is is that they're "in the discussion."
which is not what the question was.
i might add ;)
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
which is not what the question was.
i might add ;)
I know. Pretty much everyone agrees that the answer to the original question is the 1998 Yankees.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I know. Pretty much everyone agrees that the answer to the original question is the 1998 Yankees.
I think he means that the question was "Which would you rather start a franchise with" not "which was the best team to start a franchise with".
There's absolutely no right or wrong answer to that question. One could say the 08 Nationals because it's a challenge and be right.
Re: Which team would you rather start a franchise with
I wanted to vote Mariners because looking at both rosters without thinking of their futures it would be fun to try and sustain that level of play. I went yankees purely to see if I can get Tim Raines HOF totals (3000 hits):p. He is my favorite non-HoFer. Bad reasoning, but oh well.
