Where is Derek Jeter's Recognition?

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

I know, i was just looking for a good example to play with :D

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I'll have a look when I get a chance Jeffy.

Jeter as the best offensive shortstop ever shows either complete homerism or ignorance of history. The best offensive shortstop ever...hell, best shortstop ever...is Honus Wagner and there's no competition.

Arky Vaughan, as actionjackson mentioned, was a better hitter on a rate basis than Jeter, but Jeter has an edge in playing time that's only going to continue to grow, so when all is said and done, I'd probably rank Jeter above Vaughan, both offensively and overall. Jeter is a top 5 offensive shortstop at this point, and by the end of his career, will likely have a very strong argument for #2 overall behind Wagner.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

I will agree that Jeter is HOF, but his defense over the course of his career has not been average. This year somehow at the age of 35, he became an above average defensive shortstop. From 2005-2007, he was the worst defensive full-time shortstop in the major leagues bar none. Credit goes to him for busting his ass to get better, but he's no average defensive shortstop in the overall for his career.

As for the comment that he may be the best offensive shortstop ever, puh-leaze. Give your head a shake. If we can agree on using OPS+ 1) Because it's quick and 2) Because it allows us to compare across eras, factoring for era and home ballpark, Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan emerge as better than Jeter. Alex Rodriguez, if his career were to end today, would still be considered a SS because he's still played about 60% of his games there, and so would Nomar Garciaparra, but injuries have really derailed him. Also, we'll have to keep an eye on Hanley Ramirez, who when it's all said and done could very well overtake all of them, except probably Wagner. Of course the Yankees could trade for Ramirez/buy him and stick him in the OF so he won't qualify as a SS at the end of his career (It's not like they haven't done that before ;) ). Jeter's a very good hitter, but he's not the best hitting shortstop ever.

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I could not have said it better myself.

First thing i thought was of players like Honus, Nomar, Ernie Banks, Hanley already etc that are all better offensive shortstops. And his defense has been over rated. He has barely been even average over his career. But fans see 4 GG's and say, see, he is a great defensive shortstop :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

I could not have said it better myself.

First thing i thought was of players like Honus, Nomar, Ernie Banks, Hanley already etc that are all better offensive shortstops. And his defense has been over rated. He has barely been even average over his career. But fans see 4 GG's and say, see, he is a great defensive shortstop :rolleyes:

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Unfortunately Ernie "Let's Play Two" Banks is more of a 1B than a SS and his 122 OPS+ is nothing to write home about at that position. Jeter's OPS+ so far is 121, the same as it was five seasons into his career (learned by checking Ramirez' first five seasons against everyone else's, not something I knew off the top of my head ;) ) demonstrating his remarkably consistent offensive performance at a very high level for a SS.

Also on Jeter, while his counting number will increase - things seen as his offensives str like avg and obp are probably going to decline depending on just how long he plays. With his rep he could linger on for 3 or 4 years as a 270/320/400 guy.

Before Wagner hit that phase of his career he was at 341/406/493 (160 OPS+).
Jeters strengths may actually not look as good at the end of his career.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

Unfortunately Ernie "Let's Play Two" Banks is more of a 1B than a SS and his 122 OPS+ is nothing to write home about at that position. Jeter's OPS+ so far is 121, the same as it was five seasons into his career (learned by checking Ramirez' first five seasons against everyone else's, not something I knew off the top of my head ;) ) demonstrating his remarkably consistent offensive performance at a very high level for a SS.

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Banks had an unquestionably higher peak than Jeter, but people do tend to forget that his career was split nearly exactly in half - the first half being a great offensive shortstop (1953-1961) and the second half being a mediocre offensive first basemen (1962-1971).

Where does Cal Ripken rank as SS HGM?

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

Also on Jeter, while his counting number will increase - things seen as his offensives str like avg and obp are probably going to decline depending on just how long he plays. With his rep he could linger on for 3 or 4 years as a 270/320/400 guy.

Before Wagner hit that phase of his career he was at 341/406/493 (160 OPS+).
Jeters strengths may actually not look as good at the end of his career.

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Certainly he will never overtake Vaughan's OPS+, but by the time all is said and done barring disaster, he will have exceeded Vaughan's offensive value due to more playing time. Wagner is and will remain in a league of his own as far as SS go, because barring disaster, A-Rod will probably finish up with more games at 3B than at SS. Jeter would probably have to play another 15 years at the same level he has played his first 15 and that my friends ain't happening.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Where does Cal Ripken rank as SS HGM?

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Here was my ranking of the Hall of Merit shortstops that I did last year:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Cal Ripken, Jr.
3. Arky Vaughan
4. George Davis
5. Bill Dahlen
6. Robin Yount
7. Luke Appling
8. Joe Cronin
9. George Wright
10. Alan Trammell
11. Ozzie Smith
12. Ernie Banks
13. Pee Wee Reese
14. Lou Boudreau
15. Bobby Wallace
16. Jack Glasscock
17. Joe Sewell
18. Hughie Jennings
19. John Ward

I removed the Negro Leaguers from that list, as well as Dickey Pearce, who played primarily in the 1860's.

Vaughan and Ripken could easily be flip-flopped. I think by the end of Jeter's career, he'll be 2nd. Right now, I'd rate him fourth probably.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

Certainly he will never overtake Vaughan's OPS+, but by the time all is said and done barring disaster, he will have exceeded Vaughan's offensive value due to more playing time. Wagner is and will remain in a league of his own as far as SS go, because barring disaster, A-Rod will probably finish up with more games at 3B than at SS. Jeter would probably have to play another 15 years at the same level he has played his first 15 and that my friends ain't happening.

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Hanley Ramirez has a shot at challenging Wagner, but that's obviously a long way off.

Jeter can really overtake Cal Ripken? Is that only because Jeter played longer at SS than Ripken?

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Where does Cal Ripken rank as SS HGM?

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Are you asking as a hitter or as an overall player? Because his defense (very underrated) really pulls him up overall and his offense, while not elite overall was nothing to sneeze at for a SS.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

Are you asking as a hitter or as an overall player? Because his defense (very underrated) really pulls him up overall and his offense, while not elite overall was nothing to sneeze at for a SS.

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Basically entering Ripken into context when you guys are saying when Jeter is done he can overtake Vaughn as #2 SS. I thought Ripken really is 2nd best of all time, so I was just wanting clarification.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Jeter can really overtake Cal Ripken? Is that only because Jeter played longer at SS than Ripken?

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Jeter's been more consistent at such a high level. Ripken had three years - 1983, 1984, 1991 - that I think are better than Jeter's best year - 1999. Jeter has had more years at a All-Star level caliber, though. After 1991, Ripken was no longer an elite player. He was essentially a league average hitter with solid defense at that point, and played out his career from that point on as such. Good player, certainly, but not a HoF-level. 1991 and prior he was obviously an amazing player. Jeter's been able to sustain a similar level longer, though. As I said, as of now, Jeter is behind Ripken, but Jeter's showing no signs of slowing down and is still a HoF level player at age 35.

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Basically entering Ripken into context when you guys are saying when Jeter is done he can overtake Vaughn as #2 SS. I thought Ripken really is 2nd best of all time, so I was just wanting clarification.

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In that context, I think we were discussing them as offensive players, not overall players. Vaughan was better than Ripken offensively, but Ripken was better once you account for everything.

Let's look at WAR.

Career WAR:
Honus Wagner 134.7
Derek Jeter 62.2
Cal Ripken 89.8
Arky Vaughan 75.6

Wagner is quite obviously in a class by himself. Jeter's figure does not include 2009. An educated guess of his 2009 WAR would probably be something between 6.5/7, which would put him around 69 overall.

So, of course, Jeter will have to pad on a few more years at a level similar to his recent play in order to catch Ripken in total WAR. He's only about a year or so away from catching Vaughan.