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Post Season contract signings
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
I'd like this deal more if the Giants already had a good offense, but even so, it's still not bad. You're basically paying him for 2 wins a year and his defense is good enough to provide that with some potential offensively.
The only cons I can think of is that his ability is directly tied to his legs (both offensively and defensively) and he's had injury troubles (with his knees I believe?) so there is a bit of concern. And, as I already mentioned, the Giants need to be focused on their offense more than their defense.
Overall a pretty good signing though. It will be interesting to see what Orlando Hudson gets this time around and how well he does compared to Sanchez.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
200tang
I'd like this deal more if the Giants already had a good offense, but even so, it's still not bad. You're basically paying him for 2 wins a year and his defense is good enough to provide that with some potential offensively.
The only cons I can think of is that his ability is directly tied to his legs (both offensively and defensively) and he's had injury troubles (with his knees I believe?) so there is a bit of concern. And, as I already mentioned, the Giants need to be focused on their offense more than their defense.
Overall a pretty good signing though. It will be interesting to see what Orlando Hudson gets this time around and how well he does compared to Sanchez.
and isn't his vision an issue?
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
I think its a pretty good signing for the G-men if he can keep his play up and play 140+ games a year.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
and isn't his vision an issue?
It could be, I don't know.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
200tang
I'd like this deal more if the Giants already had a good offense, but even so, it's still not bad. You're basically paying him for 2 wins a year and his defense is good enough to provide that with some potential offensively.
The only cons I can think of is that his ability is directly tied to his legs (both offensively and defensively) and he's had injury troubles (with his knees I believe?) so there is a bit of concern. And, as I already mentioned, the Giants need to be focused on their offense more than their defense.
Overall a pretty good signing though. It will be interesting to see what Orlando Hudson gets this time around and how well he does compared to Sanchez.
He's probably their best 2nd base option this offseason. That is the only reason I could see them making this move. I am sure they will make a push for some of the sluggers as well.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
200tang
It could be, I don't know.
If i can remember correctly, coming off the year of his batting title, he started having vision problems, that have yet to be resolved fully. I am sure the men in San Fran know more about it than my ramblings. But I thought it had a lot to do with his ability to hit. I say if you average out the last 3 years, and he puts up similar numbers each of the next two, the Giants made a solid signing.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
He's probably their best 2nd base option this offseason. That is the only reason I could see them making this move. I am sure they will make a push for some of the sluggers as well.
If Holliday and Bay are available to go to San Francisco, they will be sure to contact them. The Giants have the ability to have a very high payroll. Huge market, i am assuming, but with ticket prices etc. I feel they have a lot of cash to offer.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
He's probably their best 2nd base option this offseason. That is the only reason I could see them making this move. I am sure they will make a push for some of the sluggers as well.
Dan Uggla, Orlando Hudson, Jose Lopez, Kelly Johnson, Mike Fontenot.
Just to name a few that they could have traded/signed with better bats.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
If i can remember correctly, coming off the year of his batting title, he started having vision problems, that have yet to be resolved fully. I am sure the men in San Fran know more about it than my ramblings. But I thought it had a lot to do with his ability to hit. I say if you average out the last 3 years, and he puts up similar numbers each of the next two, the Giants made a solid signing.
That year he won the batting title I think was THE career year for his career. I think what we see now is what he is.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
200tang
Dan Uggla, Orlando Hudson, Jose Lopez, Kelly Johnson, Mike Fontenot.
Just to name a few that they could have traded/signed with better bats.
I know some people love Uggla, but I don't think he is all that great, Hudson has been a good fielder his career, as well as Lopez from what I remember, and Kelly Johnson blows. Think Sanchez is better overall possibly, from all of those options?
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
I know some people love Uggla, but I don't think he is all that great, Hudson has been a good fielder his career, as well as Lopez from what I remember, and Kelly Johnson blows. Think Sanchez is better overall possibly, from all of those options?
I'd take every single one of those players over Sanchez. Not sure how Kelly Johnson blows though, unless we're basing this off this season only.
WAR totals per year
'05 (334 PA) : 1.7
'07 (608 PA) : 3.1
'08 (614 PA) : 2.1
'09 (346 PA) : 0.7
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
200tang
I'd take every single one of those players over Sanchez. Not sure how Kelly Johnson blows though, unless we're basing this off this season only.
WAR totals per year
'05 (334 PA) : 1.7
'07 (608 PA) : 3.1
'08 (614 PA) : 2.1
'09 (346 PA) : 0.7
Um, yeah. And I have no clue how you're basing your opinion. What the hell is WAR?
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Um, yeah. And I have no clue how you're basing your opinion. What the hell is WAR?
Wins above Replacement.
it's a stat that uses offense and defensive sab and overall stats to determine how well a player performs over a replacement player.
or google search wins above replacement player
some people rely on it too much when arguing, but it is a great way to determine value when discussing players.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Um, yeah. And I have no clue how you're basing your opinion. What the hell is WAR?
Wins Above Replacement.
OPS+:
91
117
108
82
Johnson's a fine player.
The only guy tang listed that I probably wouldn't take over Sanchez is Fontenot.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
Wins above Replacement.
it's a stat that uses offense and defensive sab and overall stats to determine how well a player performs over a replacement player.
or google search wins above replacement player
Ah, I see. Where has this stat came from? I have been involved in baseball for a long time and I have never came across this before. I mean I have been taught how to watch the game and see how players perform and where their strengths are. I dunno, I'm probably just been trained "old school" in this manner.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Wins Above Replacement.
OPS+:
91
117
108
82
Johnson's a fine player.
The only guy tang listed that I probably wouldn't take over Sanchez is Fontenot.
I am not a really big Uggla fan either. It's not that he is a bad player, but i can't say if i would take Uggla or Sanchez. Agree on Fontenot. I think his 2008 season in limited at bats won't be repeated, especially after the way his 09 went.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
The only guy tang listed that I probably wouldn't take over Sanchez is Fontenot.
It's tough to choose between the two, but I like Fontenot and he's a lefty which is tough to find in the IF :)
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Ah, I see. Where has this stat came from? I have been involved in baseball for a long time and I have never came across this before. I mean I have been taught how to watch the game and see how players perform and where their strengths are. I dunno, I'm probably just been trained "old school" in this manner.
I have only seen it over the last year or so. It and VORP are fairly new to me overall.
go to fangraphs.com.
you can learn a lot there about sabr stats that help you get a lil more in depth with some players.
It's kind of like how Adam Dunn, who gets on base a lot, hits quite a few homers, but is so bad defensively, that his WAR is actually worse than Endy Chavez, who is a great defensive player making much less money. It can be very valuable when discussing some players. But I also think some people rely on it too much when evaluating players.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
200tang
It's tough to choose between the two, but I like Fontenot and he's a lefty which is tough to find in the IF :)
Depends what a ball club needs. If it was the Blue Jays from a year ago, they would be dieing for a right handed bat. haha.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Depends what a ball club needs. If it was the Blue Jays from a year ago, they would be dieing for a right handed bat. haha.
Yeah it definitely always depends on the club. Like with the Mariners, they put together some of the best defenders this year. Even though they can get good defenders for cheap, they're going to need to go out and sign some actual hitters for cheap even if they'll provide slightly less/same value than a better defender at the same position.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
200tang
It's tough to choose between the two, but I like Fontenot and he's a lefty which is tough to find in the IF :)
not to be a homer too much. But I would take Schumaker over Fontenot. Schumaker's defense improved greatly over the course of the year, and he is a better hitter overall, IMO. Than again, maybe i am being a homer by saying so.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
I have only seen it over the last year or so. It and VORP are fairly new to me overall.
go to fangraphs.com.
you can learn a lot there about sabr stats that help you get a lil more in depth with some players.
It's kind of like how Adam Dunn, who gets on base a lot, hits quite a few homers, but is so bad defensively, that his WAR is actually worse than Endy Chavez, who is a great defensive player making much less money. It can be very valuable when discussing some players. But I also think some people rely on it too much when evaluating players.
Ahhhh! These Sabr stats stuff. I heard about this on the radio the other day. Its some new age stats to figure out value or something. Yeah figures once I basically am out of major competative baseball, these types of stats show up. So are these types of stats really being taken seriously in major league clubs or even colleges? Or is it more of a public debate type stats?
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
200tang
Yeah it definitely always depends on the club. Like with the Mariners, they put together some of the best defenders this year. Even though they can get good defenders for cheap, they're going to need to go out and sign some actual hitters for cheap even if they'll provide slightly less/same value than a better defender at the same position.
who do you want? Endy Chavez or Adam Dunn ;):D
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
not to be a homer too much. But I would take Schumaker over Fontenot. Schumaker's defense improved greatly over the course of the year, and he is a better hitter overall, IMO. Than again, maybe i am being a homer by saying so.
I'd take Schumaker too, but I was just pointing out guys who have been said to be on the trading block or are likely headed to FA.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
So are these types of stats really being taken seriously in major league clubs or even colleges? Or is it more of a public debate type stats?
You're a Red Sox fan, aren't you? Because if so, I would expect you to know about them :p
The Red Sox and Tampa Bay Rays are considered two of the best FOs that use these stats.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Ahhhh! These Sabr stats stuff. I heard about this on the radio the other day. Its some new age stats to figure out value or something. Yeah figures once I basically am out of major competative baseball, these types of stats show up. So are these types of stats really being taken seriously in major league clubs or even colleges? Or is it more of a public debate type stats?
Colleges? :p
Any smart team is taking advantage of the advances in statistical analysis. Chances are, though, that teams have their own statistics that aren't available to the public. Many statistical analysts have been hired by MLB front offices. Bill James, practically the godfather of sabermetrics, works for the Red Sox. Keith Woolner, creator of VORP, works for Cleveland. Tom Tango (www.insidethebook.com) works for Seattle. A ton of guys from Baseball Prospectus have signed on with teams.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Ahhhh! These Sabr stats stuff. I heard about this on the radio the other day. Its some new age stats to figure out value or something. Yeah figures once I basically am out of major competative baseball, these types of stats show up. So are these types of stats really being taken seriously in major league clubs or even colleges? Or is it more of a public debate type stats?
Moneyball, 2003 book by Lewis. Talks about Billy Beene using it to get a competitve advantage over large market clubs. Sabr stats are big news to a lot of ball clubs, others probably don't care as much. some fans live and die by it, other fans have never even heard of them.
When evaluating players, it's worth looking into these numbers, just like any others when assessing one's value. WAR is a pretty reliable stat, but every stat has it's flaws. I wish WAR was in Mogul honestly.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Colleges? :p
Any smart team is taking advantage of the advances in statistical analysis. Chances are, though, that teams have their own statistics that aren't available to the public.
i have always assumed the same.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Any smart team is taking advantage of the advances in statistical analysis. Chances are, though, that teams have their own statistics that aren't available to the public.
Definitely, stats like UZR are affected by other things (I'm looking at you Utley/Howard). Chances = 100% :)
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
200tang
You're a Red Sox fan, aren't you? Because if so, I would expect you to know about them :p
The Red Sox and Tampa Bay Rays are considered two of the best FOs that use these stats.
it's true. Epstein is a huge believer in Sabr stats. Loves guys that fit different statistical molds to fill his needs.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
Moneyball, 2003 book by Lewis. Talks about Billy Beene using it to get a competitve advantage over large market clubs. Sabr stats are big news to a lot of ball clubs, others probably don't care as much. some fans live and die by it, other fans have never even heard of them.
When evaluating players, it's worth looking into these numbers, just like any others when assessing one's value. WAR is a pretty reliable stat, but every stat has it's flaws. I wish WAR was in Mogul honestly.
Haha well thanks for educating me on this you guys. Seriously, two years out of the game, and moved to Virginia, don't hear too much about this stuff haha.
Well one interesting thing I heard on the radio the other day was that these sabr stats value JD Drew being more valuable than Jason Bay in some sort of stat, can't tell you exactly what it was. There was some money value that was calculated. Do you guys feel that to be true? Drew over Bay?
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
Jeffy25
it's true. Epstein is a huge believer in Sabr stats. Loves guys that fit different statistical molds to fill his needs.
Well thats what I am talking about, I haven't heard about this until last week. On the radio, Theo Epstein was interviewed and was talking about JD Drews worth. He said he was worth "over a tick over 14million". Which caused alot of debate and they got into this sabr talk. Which was news to me at the time. So trust me, Boston fans have barely known about this. We always heard Theo valued guys in a certain way. But it was never really talked about in the media at all.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Haha well thanks for educating me on this you guys. Seriously, two years out of the game, and moved to Virginia, don't hear too much about this stuff haha.
Well one interesting thing I heard on the radio the other day was that these sabr stats value JD Drew being more valuable than Jason Bay in some sort of stat, can't tell you exactly what it was. There was some money value that was calculated. Do you guys feel that to be true? Drew over Bay?
actually, there are a lot of good arguments that say yes.
Drew doesn't make outs, and is a great defensive outfielder. He doesn't have the same average, home runs or rbi's. But Drew is much more valuable than many people think he is.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Drew over Bay?
Overall? Yeah.
Defensively? Yeah
Base Running-ly...? Yeah
Offensively? No
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
200tang
Overall? Yeah.
Defensively? Yeah
Base Running-ly...? Yeah
Offensively? No
Would you agree though, that Bay carried the sox in the beginning of the year when guys like Drew, Ortiz, etc... were all struggling.
Don't get me wrong though Drew was solid in the end of the season.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Well thats what I am talking about, I haven't heard about this until last week. On the radio, Theo Epstein was interviewed and was talking about JD Drews worth. He said he was worth "over a tick over 14million". Which caused alot of debate and they got into this sabr talk. Which was news to me at the time. So trust me, Boston fans have barely known about this. We always heard Theo valued guys in a certain way. But it was never really talked about in the media at all.
bottom right hand corner of the page
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Re: Post Season contract signings
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Haha well thanks for educating me on this you guys. Seriously, two years out of the game, and moved to Virginia, don't hear too much about this stuff haha.
Well one interesting thing I heard on the radio the other day was that these sabr stats value JD Drew being more valuable than Jason Bay in some sort of stat, can't tell you exactly what it was. There was some money value that was calculated. Do you guys feel that to be true? Drew over Bay?
They might have been referring to WAR, though considering it's the radio, I'd be surprised. WAR has a dollar conversion part of it.
Bay's WAR in 2008 was 2.9, and 3.4 in 2009. Dollar values of $13.2 million and $15.3 million. Drew posted WAR's of 4.1 and 4.6 in those years - dollar values of $18.6 million and $20.7 million.
Bay had the better bat, but he's also a very poor fielder, while Drew is a very good one. UZR, the fielding component, has Bay at -18.4 and -13.9 in 2008/2009 (denoted in runs). It has Drew at +6.4 and +9.7.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
rschusta24
Would you agree though, that Bay carried the sox in the beginning of the year when guys like Drew, Ortiz, etc... were all struggling.
Don't get me wrong though Drew was solid in the end of the season.
well "clutch" isn't something you can statistically argue very well....although people try to.
Bay was huge part of the Red Sox success...but when arguing overall value to the team, Drew is a fair argument to Bay.
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Re: Post Season contract signings
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
They might have been referring to WAR, though considering it's the radio, I'd be surprised. WAR has a dollar conversion part of it.
Bay's WAR in 2008 was 2.9, and 3.4 in 2009. Dollar values of $13.2 million and $15.3 million. Drew posted WAR's of 4.1 and 4.6 in those years - dollar values of $18.6 million and $20.7 million.
Bay had the better bat, but he's also a very poor fielder, while Drew is a very good one. UZR, the fielding component, has Bay at -18.4 and -13.9 in 2008/2009 (denoted in runs). It has Drew at +6.4 and +9.7.
Those are the exact numbers I heard too! Excellent. It's gonna be tough for me to get used to some of these things guys, haha.
