You didn't know I was a Tigers fan? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Never said I was unbiased.
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You didn't know I was a Tigers fan? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Never said I was unbiased.
yeah...i didn't know lol. oh well, i got the tiger fan viewpoint down now though. thx. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by haveacigar
From an A's fan perspective Dice, ESPN is full of crap. Dont read into it.
Saw this last night, the guy did seem genuinely confused about why Youk was charging.
Exactly...the other guy's momemtum is the weapon you use against him in ju-jitsu...Porcello's hip-throw was a classic j-j move.Any J-J umpire would have awarded the encounter to the pitcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Here's a link for anyone interested in the art and discipline of ju-jitsu: http://www.google.com/search?q=jujit...A273CA273&aq=t
Youkilis crowds the plate. He went after someone on the mets , santana i think, for hitting him on the arm on a pitch that was all of about 2 inches inside.
In the old days this dude would have got beaned/brushed-back at least daily.
and his rear end would always have been the dirtiest part of his uniform.
take it like a man or go home .:rolleyes:
what about the J-J bellyroll yuke did to end up back on top of Porcello using "the other guys momentum? He was clearly in the advantage once that occurred, and had he not have been ripped off he would have won the encounter as he had Porcello in a very vulnerable position. LOL...they both are J-J artists if you want to play that way. ;):pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rongar
Living up here in Boston and not being a Boston sports fan is hell because the analysts and radio guys are the most biased people on earth. Most other places, the sports guys will criticise their teams, but not these days in Boston.
Everyday on WEEI you have the radio hosts and callers saying how Big Papi is innocent and he's a victim of circumstance and they should believe him. But these are the same people who chastized Bonds and the rest of the steroid "denyers" of the past.
And NESN was ridiculous last night. Saying how Porcello wasn't "cool enough" to pull something like that yet. Porcello? That bald headed bearded goon Youkilis was the one that caused it all.
It's really annoying. And anyone that says it's intentional shouldn't be in sports analysis because they're not really analyzing what went on, they're just giving their own opinion. Porcello's natural reactions show that he didn't mean to hit him. And then he gets tossed and the Red Sox beat the Tigers' bullpen. What a shock! The umpires and MLB helping the Sox to a win.
If they win another title this year I'll die a little inside.
Porcello was on top after the fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOiUV3xNlOIQuote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Pause it at the 11 and 15 second marks pal, please feel free to point out when Youk ended up on top.
I'm more inclined to just run away from the guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Of course they do. Makes for a better story.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Thanks for that link. Porcello landed on top and for as much as we can see, stayed on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoosamC
The guy is, like, fourth in the league in getting thumped. He takes his lumps and trots down to first, without incident, every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh123123123
The one time he decides he's tired of the bullsh!t, when this exact issue has been at a low boil over the past several games, already, everyone's all over him. Crazy.
First off, I don't think pitchers should be throwing at hitters, anyway. It's bone-headed. But, if the old-school technique of pitchers "taking back the inside part of the plate" is going to go on, and the new-school technique of batters (armored from head to toe) hanging way out across the plate is going to go on, there are going to be hit batsmen. It's unavoidable.
The problem is that the league (and their duly designated umpiring officials) upsets the balance by handing out "warnings".
So, as long as a pitcher gets in the first plunk and draws a warning, the opposition can't "protect" their hitters by retaliating, or they face getting tossed. So, instead of the matter being over and done with, in the next inning, instead, it sits in the bank and collects interest while the other side bides its time before it can retaliate, or just does nothing at all.
So a young punk like, say, a Joba Chamberlain (who apparently fancies himself having the cache of some salty old vet like a Walter Johnson or a Gibson or a Drysdale, while forgetting he's barely got two years of major league service time) is allowed to run rough-shod, throwing at batters (Youk being one of his favorite targets, BTW) without ever getting knocked down a couple of pegs by anyone.
So,
- the league can't/won't protect batters directly.
- when the league does get involved, it's only to ensure that a batter's own pitching staff also can't protect them.
- in the case of a young up-and-comer like Joba, you could argue that his own team's veterans should probably be telling him to knock off the cr@p.
Then, when a batter like Youkilis gets beaned (yet again) and finally blows a gasket, everyone sits around, scratching their heads, looking at one another aghast, all trying to figure out what the hell Youk's problem is...?!
:confused::eek::rolleyes:
This is hardly "the one time."Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetMedic
I love Youkilis, and I've been a Boston fan since birth. Born into it.
I can't really excuse this. He's a good player, and I'd stick up for him. The only factors that matter here are
1) youk was just hit last night, by the Tigers
2) Martinez was just pitched high and inside
3) Porcello has great control, at least in not hitting batters. This is his second HBP this year - and the second time he's hit Youk. Maybe there's some bad blood - but hitting the same batter twice, and thats the ONLY time you ever lose control? Anyone could be skeptical of that.
I don't condone the way Youk acted - throwing the helmet and all, it was a bit much - but I can see how it would all come together and seem (to him) like he needed to defend himself (although, he didn't seem to all that well). Maybe it was also an effort to spark the team.
Not really iron-clad defensible, but when you look at those three facts, you have to give the guy some room.
If he's charged the mound before, you'll need to point out the incidents to me. If that is the case, then my memory's failing me.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
that was a terrible angle....or the replays i saw yesterday were terrible. the ones i saw yesterday did show a better view of the two after the melee and even in the one you provided yes, Porcellos legs are still on yuke but yukes upper half is while not directly atop porcello, is in much better position and somewhat on top. He's driving porcellos upper body into the ground for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoosamC
i'm just amazed how different the opinions of intent are...most, well all of the radio analysts i've heard today and last night say it was clearly intentional and almost all in here feel otherwise. very interesting.
The one time?
Youk acts like a ***** a lot when the balls thrown at him.
Hell, he did it in the opening game of the series when Jackson hit him throws his **** down and takes a long trot. But of course he doesn't charge Jackson, he waits until a 20 year old rookie is on the mound.
I vaguely remember one or two times, but I don't remember specifics so, unfortunately, I can't point you to them...and I certainly could be wrong....but it's definitely not the first time he's "got into it" with a pitcher (not just physically).Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetMedic
Charging the mound isn't the only sign somebody's angry.Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetMedic
As far as I can tell, Porcello's leg looks like it's on top of Youk's head, certainly not Youk on top....but, of course, that's once there's a mob surrounding them so it's very hard to tell. Porcello, without a doubt, landed on Youk, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Radio analysts thrive on story and conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Plus, if I recall correctly, you're from New England.
Surely, you're not equating charging the mound with jawing at a pitcher from the base line (which is what I guess you must be talking about when you say "acts like a *****"), on the way to first base.Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoosamC
I suppose you'd rather he smile and thank the pitcher.
i don't have any problem with ANYONE b!tching about being hit with a 90+ mph fastball. I"d b!tch everytime. intentional or not, the pitchers should have control when throwing something that could be deadly. its part of the game and the hitter should accept it, yelling is fine..and go to first. there are times however when a player needs to take it into his own hands and charge. i don't think last night was one of those. As i've stated though, hit me near the head or go near it..intentional or not..and i think charging is warrented.Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoosamC
pitchers can end careers or seriously cripple players and give them long DL stints. Heck wrist and hand injuries alone from beanings are very serious. In the AL...they don't face consequences. They should have control of the weapon they throw....i'm not faulting anyone after being beaned by that for b!tching.
Yeah, 'cause batters never got angry when they got hit by pitches, until that rabble-rouser Youkilis came along.Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoosamC
but if it was so clearly not intentional, they look like fools saying it was, conflict or not...heck there's plenty of conflict anyway, why embellish clear falsehoods?Quote:
Radio analysts thrive on story and conflict.
Plus, if I recall correctly, you're from New England.
and yes, i'm from new england...but mike & mike on espn is nationally syndicated...baseball tonight is nationally syndicated...and even YES network and WFAN morning analysts said they thought it was intentional.
MLB Network said the opposite, FWIW.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Im of the opinion that if youre gonna stick youre arm dang near over the strike zone you shouldnt whine like a biach when you get hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetMedic
This includes taking a step at the pitcher while cussing him , throwing your crap around etc.
its part of the game.
you crowd the plate, you get brushed back.
and then usually your pitcher brushes back someone on the other side.
and there-in lies the problem.
Baseball now has to police brushbacks as a result of brawls .
Take your base, stfu, and the situation would police itself.
one exception ... headhunting.
I don't know if I agree with that point, specifically, but what you said in this post is pretty much (in part) what I said (or was trying to) earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeetDaMets
And Youk's as guilty of it as anyone.
But, there's
- getting hit on the hand, elbow, arm because you're too far over the plate.
- getting brushed back.
- getting blatantly thumped.
(Getting knocked down is probably a "final warning" lying somewhere between those last two, no?) ;)
The problem is, while I believe these are separate and distinct "animals", figuring out which is which can often involve a lot of "mind reading". And while that's fine for the morning-drive radio talk-shows, and you and I in this forum, I don't think it's a practice the MLB should be attempting.
I'll tell you what, MeetDaMets (and I have no archive footage of at-bats to back this up; I'm just spit-balling here), the first few times some batters get hit on the hand or elbow, and the umpire looks to his right and yells "strike one", instead of pointing to first base, the problem will be on its way to a resolution. Word will get around fast. :)
Agree its hard to mind read and determine intent.
i dont think Youk is over the zone but rather hes so dang close that anything
at all off the plate inside is always going to come close to hitting him.
(similiarly - it would be a bit silly for me to complain about inconsiderate crazy drivers if im standing in the left lane of a highway)
I think it more a matter of enforcing / retooling the batters box.
Actually enforcing "batter must attempt to get out of the way" would help too.
I dont think keeping your feet in side the box whie sticking your armorplated elbow "on the black" is within the spirit of the rule.
if the rule needs to be reworded to account for such silliness then so be it.
if MLB needs to use something other then chalk to prevent erasings to be able to enforce it so be it.
imo
batters intereference should = youre out
just like catchers intereference = take your base.
also note,
the pitcher doesnt get to wipe away the pitching rubber and stand wherever he pleases.
how long is the batters box inside line fully visible on the average ?
2 pitches into the leadoff hitter ?
I seem to remember Youkilis having a history of getting into dustups, arguments, and altercations quite a few times in his brief career. That may be an undeserved reputation, but I doubt it.
Either way, I think Youkilis knew what he was doing. He knew he could get Porcello out of the game by charging him, he did, Porcello gets ejected, Red Sox get to face long-relief bum Chris Lambert for 5 innings and win. Youkilis hesitated for a good 2 seconds or so before deciding to run after Porcello, that's what makes me think it was calculated.
And as I posted, Porcello has hit exactly 2 batters in his career, both Youkillis. that's remarkable control, and a heck of a coincidental loss of control, given Youk being hit the night before and pitching high and tight to V-Mart.
I guess we're all fans, so some bias is just going to remain part of this.
that is an interesting point,Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
maybe
youk is the only guy porcello's faced whose elbow is .3 nanomicrons off the inside of the plate ? ;)
agree :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
That's what I seem remember when I made my "hardly one time" comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by haveacigar
nope, Porcello pitched against the Yanks and didn't hit Jeter or any of their plate-hounders.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeetDaMets
Yet another aspect - Porcello was brought up in NY. In his only start against the Yankes, he gave up 6 runs for the loss.
Perhaps...he is a plant for the Yanks? Trying to Injure the Sox big bat, and throwing the game when facing his home club? :D
nj!Quote:
Originally Posted by alloutwar
LOL - oops
Isn't NJ just the parts of NY that no one wants to live in?
:D
i'd buy this, except for the fact his elbow wasn't hit :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by MeetDaMets
having spent 17 years of my youth in new jersey . . . yes !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
is or is not his elbow close to the plate every at bat ?Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
in which case every pitcher has to be thinking
i gotta brush this guy back.
stay in the batters box, you dont get brushed back...
I don't really think Porcello's control is that great, just because he hasn't hit a lot of guys. It's not like it's hard to imagine that a 20 year old would have a 2-seamer slip out of his hand mid-delivery.
It's not hard to imagine, no.
Hitting the same guy twice, while not hitting any of the other 200 guys you face, is odd.
Hitting him after your slugger was hit the previous inning is suspicious.
Hitting him after going high and tight to V-Mart makes it a bit more obvious.
Finally, hitting him the second night in a row pushes it over the edge, I feel. That's a whole lot of personal coincidence to swallow.