Atheists: Fully Human?

Not according to 'Cardinal' Cormack Murphy-O'Connor

Seriously?

Wow

So what am I then?

:rolleyes:

There is no such thing as an Antheist.

People who are not part of an organized religion have gods nonetheless. They just call it something else.

The god of technology, the god of consumerism, the god of the environment, etc.

My father worship all three. When a machine (like a GPS) says something and a human (say, my mother) says something else, he will follow the machine (because its the voice of god for him)... then he will found out that his wife was wrong, the machine was simply badly programmed.

He will buy things and borrow to buy things he doesn't need because advertising tell him he is a nobody if he doesn't give his money to these big companies for their useless crap that everyone else also buys for the same reasons of fear, image, and greed.

He will recycle like crazy and will get upset at people who throw recyclable stuff in the garbage (like I often do by mistake or carelessness) and at people who let their car running while waiting for someone to come out.

All of these thought processes happen at an unconcious level. He is unaware of it (or refuse to face the facts).

These things are fanatism and part of an unorganized religion. Atheist are very human indeed.

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Originally Posted by Goldberg

There is no such thing as an Antheist.

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But there are atheists :D

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Originally Posted by Goldberg

There is no such thing as an Antheist.

People who are not part of an organized religion have gods nonetheless. They just call it something else.

The god of technology, the god of consumerism, the god of the environment, etc.

My father worship all three. When a machine (like a GPS) says something and a human (say, my mother) says something else, he will follow the machine (because its the voice of god for him)... then he will found out that his wife was wrong, the machine was simply badly programmed.

He will buy things and borrow to buy things he doesn't need because advertising tell him he is a nobody if he doesn't give his money to these big companies for their useless crap that everyone else also buys for the same reasons of fear, image, and greed.

He will recycle like crazy and will get upset at people who throw recyclable stuff in the garbage (like I often do by mistake or carelessness) and at people who let their car running while waiting for someone to come out.

All of these thought processes happen at an unconcious level. He is unaware of it (or refuse to face the facts).

These things are fanatism and part of an unorganized religion. Atheist are very human indeed.

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I can't tell if your being humorous, drunk, or are serious

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Originally Posted by Goldberg

There is no such thing as an Antheist.

People who are not part of an organized religion have gods nonetheless. They just call it something else.

The god of technology, the god of consumerism, the god of the environment, etc.

My father worship all three. When a machine (like a GPS) says something and a human (say, my mother) says something else, he will follow the machine (because its the voice of god for him)... then he will found out that his wife was wrong, the machine was simply badly programmed.

He will buy things and borrow to buy things he doesn't need because advertising tell him he is a nobody if he doesn't give his money to these big companies for their useless crap that everyone else also buys for the same reasons of fear, image, and greed.

He will recycle like crazy and will get upset at people who throw recyclable stuff in the garbage (like I often do by mistake or carelessness) and at people who let their car running while waiting for someone to come out.

All of these thought processes happen at an unconcious level. He is unaware of it (or refuse to face the facts).

These things are fanatism and part of an unorganized religion. Atheist are very human indeed.

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1) If joking, Im not sure I get it.

2) If your serious, I still don't get it, consumerism, science, technology, environment and not gods, nor does Fanaticism make it a religion.

3) if your drunk, Im disappointed you didn't share.

I believe that there can be no such thing as an atheist. Whatever the first force in the universe ever way, it had to be created by something. Things can't just start out of nothing.

Funny I feel the same way towards the Cardinal, but it's cool as long as he is 100% powerless he can say what ever he wants.

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

I believe that there can be no such thing as an atheist. Whatever the first force in the universe ever way, it had to be created by something. Things can't just start out of nothing.

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Then what would have created the thing that created the universe? :)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Then what would have created the thing that created the universe? :)

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Jerry Springer?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Then what would have created the thing that created the universe? :)

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I agree...but however the very first thing came about, that's what I would consider "god."

I don't even want to pretend to think that I can fathom anymore than that. All I believe is that there had to have been something that was "first" that set everything else in motion. That's god.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Then what would have created the thing that created the universe? :)

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http://www.theworldofgoddess.com/wor...elso_burn2.gif

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

I agree...but however the very first thing came about, that's what I would consider "god."

I don't even want to pretend to think that I can fathom anymore than that. All I believe is that there had to have been something that was "first" that set everything else in motion. That's god.

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But something would have had to create god...and something would have had to create that something...so, it's paradoxical (I think that's the word I'm looking for, but I'm not sure).

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

But something would have had to create god...and something would have had to create that something...so, it's paradoxical (I think that's the word I'm looking for, but I'm not sure).

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I think it is beyond human comprehension. That's why I think religion is silly, but I don't think it is possible for all of this to exist without some kind of intelligent design. A scientific force can't appear all by itself out of pure nothingness.

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

I think it is beyond human comprehension. That's why I think religion is silly, but I don't think it is possible for all of this to exist without some kind of intelligent design. A scientific force can't appear all by itself out of pure nothingness.

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But gods can?

Perhaps a scientific force can appear all by itself out of pure nothingness, and we just haven't yet figured out how. Just like you're saying gods are beyond human comprehension, there are areas of science which are (currently) beyond human comoprehension, or are otherwise unknown.

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Originally Posted by filihok

But gods can?

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I'd be more apt to believe that gods can rather than scientific forces, b/c humans have the ability to learn about and manipulate or limit scientific forces. The concept of a "god" is beyond human comprehension, therefore, yes, I do believe that gods being able to create themselves is a possibility.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Perhaps a scientific force can appear all by itself out of pure nothingness, and we just haven't yet figured out how. Just like you're saying gods are beyond human comprehension, there are areas of science which are (currently) beyond human comoprehension, or are otherwise unknown.

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Yes, but humans have the ability to grasp scientific concepts..it's just a matter of learning them. I don't think humans have the ability to grasp the concept of god...therefore I'm inclined to think they could have started themselves.

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

I'd be more apt to believe that gods can rather than scientific forces, b/c humans have the ability to learn about and manipulate or limit scientific forces. The concept of a "god" is beyond human comprehension, therefore, yes, I do believe that gods being able to create themselves is a possibility.

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What do gods or scientific forces have to do with humans? That's kinda putting the cart before the horse isn't it?

I don't know how I feel about this idea of calling things we don't understand 'gods'. Back in the day humans didn't understand the earth's tilt or orbit and created Persephone as a work around.

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Originally Posted by filihok

What do gods or scientific forces have to do with humans? That's kinda putting the cart before the horse isn't it?

I don't know how I feel about this idea of calling things we don't understand 'gods'. Back in the day humans didn't understand the earth's tilt or orbit and created Persephone as a work around.

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Evolution is a scientific force.


Yes, but we eventually learned those things about the Earth. What have we learned, definitively, about gods?

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

Evolution is a scientific force.

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THeory

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Yes, but we eventually learned those things about the Earth. What have we learned, definitively, about gods?

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That we don't understand but a glimmer of our multiverse yet and we (may) will eventually learn how it began.

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

Yes, but humans have the ability to grasp scientific concepts..it's just a matter of learning them. I don't think humans have the ability to grasp the concept of god...therefore I'm inclined to think they could have started themselves.

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But, what I'm saying is that it is possible that there is a scientific explanation for the universe being created from nothing that humans just do not yet know or are able to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

But, what I'm saying is that it is possible that there is a scientific explanation for the universe being created from nothing that humans just do not yet know or are able to comprehend.

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Exactly. We didn't understand how the earth's tilt created the seasons so we made up a story. We don't understand how the universe began so we make up stories.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Then what would have created the thing that created the universe? :)

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One concept I have read about this has to do with dimensions. Everything we physically interact with is three dimensional, but we live in four dimensional spacetime (three physical dimensions + time). A being that was actually four dimensional would not fall within the constraints imposed by being 3d in a 4d world, like having a beginning or ending as we understand it. I originally got interested in this type of thought after reading a book that explored physics of 2d world in a 3d spacetime.

You are all wrong. Adam was bored so he got Eve. Then a T-Rex ate her. Luckily, Kane and Abel were there. So Kane slew Abel, and then a T-Rex ate him too. I am running out of T-Rexs'.

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Originally Posted by filihok

But gods can?

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Well, gods are after all almighty and don't need to rely on physical presence to prove their existence.

Unfortunately, Cardinal Cormack Murphy-O'Connor is right, and now has managed to get a photo of an atheist in the wild...

http://imagecache.allposters.com/ima...-2-Posters.jpg

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Unfortunately, Cardinal Cormack Murphy-O'Connor is right, and now has managed to get a photo of an atheist in the wild...

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Ok, so the governor of California is to blame for everything. He is married into one of the most Catholic families.

i beleive we live in a petri dish or snowglobe type thing and are being used as a science experiment...being closely monitored by many "gods" of different universes.

When they are upset with our development they send gods to assist, such as those who helped us build pyramids, and develop mathmatics. Gods such as Tom Cruise for entertainment and Houston for statistical analysis of well, everything. :D

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Originally Posted by dickay

i beleive we live in a petri dish or snowglobe type thing and are being used as a science experiment...being closely monitored by many "gods" of different universes.

When they are upset with our development they send gods to assist, such as those who helped us build pyramids, and develop mathmatics. Gods such as Tom Cruise for entertainment and Houston for statistical analysis of well, everything. :D

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That sounds plausible. :)

I'm not really sure if I see the point of this thread. A Cardinal doesn't like atheists. NO WAY. He wants to define human in a spiritual rather than biologic sense. Who cares?

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Originally Posted by haveacigar

He wants to define human in a spiritual rather than biologic sense. Who cares?

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It's not that he wants to use different definitions to define humans, he is saying that atheists AREN'T fully human.

Kind of insulting, no?

What's kind of scary is that this is the thoughts of some of our presidents as well, like Mr. George H.W. Bush:

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"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."

- George Bush, to a AA reporter Robert I. Sherman in August 27,1987, while serving as vice-president and running for President

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Originally Posted by free2131

It's not that he wants to use different definitions to define humans, he is saying that atheists AREN'T fully human.

Kind of insulting, no?

What's kind of scary is that this is the thoughts of some of our presidents as well, like Mr. George H.W. Bush:

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I don't really see what's scary about it in the Cardinal's case (GHWB is a different story). And yeah, it is insulting. It's about as insulting as any of the crap atheists say about religious type. Point being, who cares? I'm not really seeing how every adversarial comment made by one type of person about the other really has any impact on...anything. On the same token, I wouldn't really see it fit to make a thread every time an atheist said "Catholics are infantile sheep who aren't bright enough to understand science," or something of that nature.

Either side, of any argument, saying the other side is 'less than human' is scary. that's what leads to mass murders, slavery, and denial of rights being OK (see the Holocaust, civil rights, women's rights, etc etc).

Once someone thinks the opposite view makes someone somehow less of a human being, then things get out of hand. That's what inspires muslim fundamentalists in terrorist attacks, or hatred of Jews by so many. some Americans feel the same way about the rest of the world - that they're somehow 'less human', or less important, less deserving of good things, etc.

The entire idea is sickening and grotesque in every way. It's not debating ideology, it's an attempt to make hating and maltreatment acceptable. Maybe it's not headline news, but this is definitely something to take note of if you have any stake in the matter. If you don't, that's fine - move on.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

Either side, of any argument, saying the other side is 'less than human' is scary. that's what leads to mass murders, slavery, and denial of rights being OK (see the Holocaust, civil rights, women's rights, etc etc).

Once someone thinks the opposite view makes someone somehow less of a human being, then things get out of hand. That's what inspires muslim fundamentalists in terrorist attacks, or hatred of Jews by so many. some Americans feel the same way about the rest of the world - that they're somehow 'less human', or less important, less deserving of good things, etc.

The entire idea is sickening and grotesque in every way. It's not debating ideology, it's an attempt to make hating and maltreatment acceptable. Maybe it's not headline news, but this is definitely something to take note of if you have any stake in the matter. If you don't, that's fine - move on.

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You can always count on AOW bringing the quailty posts

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

But, what I'm saying is that it is possible that there is a scientific explanation for the universe being created from nothing that humans just do not yet know or are able to comprehend.

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...and I do not think that is possible, because whatever that scientific explaination is...it couldn't have just come to be all by itself. Whatever was the very first thing, happening, force, incident, law, or whatever....I don't believe it could've appeared out of pure nothingness.

I do believe that a concept of a "god," whatever the hell that may be, could possibly have that capability.

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

...and I do not think that is possible, because whatever that scientific explaination is...it couldn't have just come to be all by itself. Whatever was the very first thing, happening, force, incident, law, or whatever....I don't believe it could've appeared out of pure nothingness.

I do believe that a concept of a "god," whatever the hell that may be, could possibly have that capability.

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And it comes back to beliefs...You don't believe that there could be a scientific explanation for it. I believe that there possibly could be.

The fact of the matter is we just don't know. The beginning of the universe does not require a "god." Is it possible? Sure, but it's not a requirement.

There doesn't have to be a "first thing" or a "creator" in order for things to exist. That's a flawed way of viewing things. If you think that there must have been A as the cause of B, then you're thinking too linear and simplistically. There doesn't have to be a finite point or a cause. B can stand on its own.

Basically, there probably is no "before" and there doesn't "have to be." No reason to ask moot questions and get confused over them.