guns on college campuses?

Well, if I was an all-powerful being, with an all-powerful father looking over me, I would feel perfectly safe without mundane weaponry, too.

But let's not get this into a religious debate.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

In Matthew 26:52, which describes the apostle Peter drawing a sword to defend Jesus against Roman soldiers, Jesus tells him to put it away, for those who live by the sword will die by the sword!



Actually: the eye for an eye passage is found in Leviticus in the Old Testament and in the New Testament Jesus in His Sermon on the Mount, expounded on the law. Jesus urges his followers to turn the other cheek when confronted by violence:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38–39)

The passage continues with the importance of showing forgiveness to enemies and those who harm you.

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that is a good line to live by....but it doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to protect yourself and your family, and taking away our legal rights as citizens to not be allowed to have a gun is prepostorous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

It is obvious (to me) that the intent of this amendment is to ensure that states may maintain a militia, NOT that everybody should have a closet full of the most powerful weapon of the day.

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I agree with Filihok!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

I agree with Filihok!

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i still don't know where anyone is getting that people are going to be filling their closests with weaponry.

The debate is about being allowed the right to have a gun, concealed on your person in your home, or in your car. you should be allowed to do so as it is our God given right to protect our families.

No one has said let's take the right and let's beat it up and carry machine guns and rocket launchers...

having a solitary revlover, a 9, a shotgun, something to protect you and your loved one's in the event that something actually would happen is a smart decision by any man who has a family....you will be damn happy you have it in the case that something happens.....God forbid of course....and you as a responsible parent and family man, need to also understand the necessary precations to keeping this weapon away from your children.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

I agree with Filihok!

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By the way, how do you propose that the citizens maintain a militia without having access to arms?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

alright, then ask yourself personally, think like a criminal...which house are you more likely to break into? the one where there is no doubt in your mind that this guy has a gun because he isn't allowed to...

or the guy's house that he could possibly have a gun because he has the legal right to....these houses are next door to each other, which one you going into?

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Actually if I was a criminal then I would think rob them both and since one guy has a gun, heck shoot them both and be done with it! In for a penny, in for a pound.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

No one has said let's take the right and let's beat it up and carry machine guns and rocket launchers...

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It's called reductio ad absurdum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

Actually if I was a criminal then I would think rob them both and since one guy has a gun, heck shoot them both and be done with it! In for a penny, in for a pound.

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But if you went to shoot the guy with gun, he could shoot back and kill you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Well, if I was an all-powerful being, with an all-powerful father looking over me, I would feel perfectly safe without mundane weaponry, too.

But let's not get this into a religious debate.:)

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As a believer, not a debate just a statement, I feel God can keep me safe and when or how I die doesn't matter because I am secure in where I am going afterward. I work in a dangerous job and am regularly threatened and have not once felt the need to pick up a gun to defend myself. My life is in God's hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

that is a good line to live by....but it doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to protect yourself and your family, and taking away our legal rights as citizens to not be allowed to have a gun is prepostorous.

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Well see I believe we have these things called police officers....maybe I'm wrong...aren't they supposed to protect us? Oh and a military!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

As a believer, not a debate just a statement, I feel God can keep me safe and when or how I die doesn't matter because I am secure in where I am going afterward. I work in a dangerous job and am regularly threatened and have not once felt the need to pick up a gun to defend myself. My life is in God's hands.

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Have you ever been threatened with a gun or other such lethal force?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

Well see I believe we have these things called police officers....maybe I'm wrong...aren't they supposed to protect us? Oh and a military!

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Why shouldn't people be able to defend themselves, as well, though?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

i still don't know where anyone is getting that people are going to be filling their closests with weaponry.

The debate is about being allowed the right to have a gun, concealed on your person in your home, or in your car. you should be allowed to do so as it is our God given right to protect our families.

No one has said let's take the right and let's beat it up and carry machine guns and rocket launchers...

having a solitary revlover, a 9, a shotgun, something to protect you and your loved one's in the event that something actually would happen is a smart decision by any man who has a family....you will be damn happy you have it in the case that something happens.....God forbid of course....and you as a responsible parent and family man, need to also understand the necessary precations to keeping this weapon away from your children.

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I have locks on my doors and a dog! However I will not live in fear! I would be more afraid of a nutty neighbor going half-**** in a drunken stupor and shooting his gun off after watching a football game than having a B & E happen with a gunmen involved!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

Well see I believe we have these things called police officers....maybe I'm wrong...aren't they supposed to protect us? Oh and a military!

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i almost wrote this earlier.....my belief...if the police had a response time that was somewhere within a few minutes, then yes, that would be acceptable...but when it takes your local police 30 minutes to get to you, and seeing how crimes tend to happen very very quickly...how do you propose they can defend you? and how can they defend you in the event that you can't call them?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

But if you went to shoot the guy with gun, he could shoot back and kill you.

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Yes and it gets ratcheted up because the other guy has a gun... If I am breaking into a house and the guy is unarmed I am not going to shoot him...criminals should have guns because the average joe has guns....:rolleyes:

most guns are a level of reassurance for many Americans.....many that carry them will never shoot them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Have you ever been threatened with a gun or other such lethal force?

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I have not been threatened with a gun, I have had guys taking swings at me and threaten, verbally to kill me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

criminals should have guns because the average joe has guns....:rolleyes:

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they got them anyway, regardless if it is legally allowed or not. they can get them from any peddler on the street that wants to sell one....how do you think South Central L.A. is over run with guns? how many of the gang related murders are actually related to legal citizens carrying guns?

The problem is, the bad guys are gonna get em anyway, why would you not allow the good guys to have them too?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

i still don't know where anyone is getting that people are going to be filling their closests with weaponry.

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http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?p=1281288
;)

Quote:

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The debate is about being allowed the right to have a gun, concealed on your person in your home, or in your car. you should be allowed to do so as it is our God given right to protect our families.

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I don't believe in gods

Quote:

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No one has said let's take the right and let's beat it up and carry machine guns and rocket launchers...

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As I mentioned before, the amendment was most likely intended to preserve the citizens' right to take up arms against the government. If we are taking the FF words as word, then we would need some heavy artillery to go against the armed forces.

Quote:

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having a solitary revlover, a 9, a shotgun, something to protect you and your loved one's in the event that something actually would happen is a smart decision by any man who has a family....

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Says you, many smart people disagree

Quote:

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you will be damn happy you have it in the case that something happens.....God forbid of course....and you as a responsible parent and family man, need to also understand the necessary precations to keeping this weapon away from your children.

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A couple points that I think I need to make:

1) In reality, all this "Constitutional right to keep and bear arms", and "intent of the Founding Fathers" is useless. As wonderfully as these men created the Constitution they left it open to be changed and they could not see 200 years into the future.

2) I'm not 'pro-gun' nor am I 'anti-gun'. I think that communities should be given the choice. If a community decides for itself that it wants to be gun free (as DC did) then that should be respected. The Supreme Court, in overturning the handgun ban did something quite un-American (though growing more popular every day) it took away the people's right to choose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

I have not been threatened with a gun, I have had guys taking swings at me and threaten, verbally to kill me.

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and those are not worthy times to whip out a gun...people are crazy, yes....but you don't need a gun in those situations.

for me, if someone breaks into my home and i am there with my family....then god damnit i am going to protect my family by any means necessary...I would kill to save my unborn child...if i thought there was a chance that that child was going to be taken from this earth innocently. Many different extremes have to happen first, but my job, as a father, is to protect, how can you say it is ok to take those rights away from me to protect? I am not gonig to go on some shooting spree just because i get a gun and get trigger happy, and most law abiding citizens are likewise in those thoughts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?p=1281288
;)

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I didn't say closet full, I said where it is kept. It's a simple hand gun, and if someone breaks into my place of residence with my sleeping family and they are armed, they are toast...and broke into the wrong house...I am not going to expect anyone else to take responsiblity and try and protect my family....it is my job as a father....if the police could do it, then I would support that, but that isn't the reality of the situation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Why shouldn't people be able to defend themselves, as well, though?

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:confused:

No one is saying that people shouldn't be able to defend themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

:confused:

No one is saying that people shouldn't be able to defend themselves.

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then what the hell are we debating?

that's the point in having a gun...protection....and maybe hunting with limitiations...there is no other reason a person should or want to own a gun....

and if they want one just because they are "cool" then they are idiots and deserve to die by the blade of their own sword

EDIT-ok, that was harsh, but still

wasn't this debate about college kids having them? if everyday adult Americans can have them, then shouldn't adult college students? hell they already do...why take the right when they aren't consistantly taking advantage up the opportunity?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

If I am breaking into a house and the guy is unarmed I am not going to shoot him...

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You might not. Other criminals might.

Quote:

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criminals should have guns because the average joe has guns....:rolleyes:

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It's actually the other way around.

What you are advocating for is a society where the only people with guns are the government and the criminals. In my ideal society, nobody would have guns. Unfortunately, that's a utopian ideal. In the real world, there's two options - allow law-abiding citizens to own guns, or create a society where guns are outlawed, and the only people with guns are outlaws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dickay

i'm torn on this one.

on one hand, should licensed adults be permitted to carry a gun to protect themselves from deranged individuals who try to martyr themselves on school yards on what seems like a yearly basis?

on the other hand, do we want a bunch of guns on a campus where already an escalated amount of drugs & alcohol abuse, and crimes such as theft and rape take place?

its easy to say option #2 is better, guns lead to violence.....but then again, if that wacko in VT knows he'll be meeting armed college students he likely isn't going in there and there likely isn't dozens of parents with dead children.

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I'm late to the thread, but definitely #1. The only policy that has ever been shown to deter mass murder is concealed-carry laws. States that allowed citizens to carry concealed handguns reduced multiple-shooting attacks by 60% and reduced injury and death from the attacks by nearly 80%.

Mass murders at "gun-free zones":

• The deranged student killing 32 people in Virginia Tech before killing himself
• The Amish school shooting in 2006, where the killer murdered five little girls before killing himself
• Columbine in 1999 where the two guys killed 12 people before committing suicide
• Two students in Craighead County, Arkansas, killing five people, including four little girls, before deciding to attempt to escape
• Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, when an adult shooter killed 17 and then committed suicide.

There was no one to stop any of these people. I'd love if we lived in a society where this never happened, but it's the less than 1% of people with easy accessibility to guns that engages in rampant killings. The remainder of the (over) 99% of people seem to get along just fine. It's not as if we're going off shooting everybody just because we have guns. The fact that guns can kill human beings is the whole point and the reason why they're good at deterring violent criminals. Compare the above situations with school shootings where a law-abiding citizen had a gun at the scene:

In 2001, the shooting at the high school in Santee, California. The student began shooting at his classmates and the school activated its "safe-school plan", which unfortunately did not involve anybody having a gun at the school. The school sent in an unarmed trained campus supervisor to stop the killer. The killer shot the "trained campus supervisor". Luckily, a San Diego policeman who was armed was bringing his daughter to school that day. He stopped the killer (with a gun) and held him at bay until more police could arrive.

Only two died. I say "only" simply because it could have been worse.

In 2002, an immigrant student in Virginia started shooting classmates at the Appalachian School of Law. Two classmates in another part of the building retrieved guns from their cars, approached the killer, and forced him to drop his weapon, while a third classmate tackled him until police arrived.

Three died.

A student at Pearl High School in Mississippi had already shot several people at his high school in 1997 and was headed for the junior high school when the assistant principal retrieved a .45 pistol from his car and pointed it at the gunman's head, ending the slaughter.

Two died.

A student attending a junior high school dance at a restaurant in Edinboro, Pennsylvania, started shooting, but the restaurant owner pulled out his shotgun, chased the gunman from the restaurant, and captured him for the police.

One died.

Again, I wish these situations never happened or that they'll never happen to me (or my family). Some people choose to look at the entire world with rose-colored glasses and choose blissfully ignorant over the reality of the world. However, I'm never going to take that chance, which is why I'll be armed. It's a "just in case" scenario for the small fraction of people that choose to break the law and go off killing other people. I'm not going to become a victim just because they decided to break the law. Even if all firearms were banned, criminals would still gain access to them, and then I'm ****ed. I'm going to protect myself and my loved ones. I'd question anybody's love for their family who wouldn't choose that option. Baseball bats and dogs are nice, but no match for a maniac with a gun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

The Supreme Court, in overturning the handgun ban did something quite un-American (though growing more popular every day) it took away the people's right to choose.

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You could make the argument than since the ban took away people's right to choose, overturning it was NOT "un-American" if "American" is defined as "freedom."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

No one is saying that people shouldn't be able to defend themselves.

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Saying that people shouldn't be allowed to own guns IS saying they shouldn't be able to adequately defend themselves against people with guns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeffy25

wasn't this debate about college kids having them? if everyday adult Americans can have them, then shouldn't adult college students? hell they already do...why take the right when they aren't consistantly taking advantage up the opportunity?

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I think everybody (that believes in the right to own guns) would agree that adult college students should be allowed to own guns. The issue is whether those guns should be allowed on campus. While I believe that people should be allowed to own guns, I also believe that there are places where people should not be allowed to carry their weapon.

you know what, i have changed on this issue over the years. I used to be a extreme, pro-gun, vocal supporter of the right to have as many weapons as you want.

Then I grew up....and traveled the world, and saw the results of the average joe having a gun, and the devastation caused by these weapons. I saw the senseless violence happening in high schools, the guys who go crazy and start firing into the streets, killing innocent by standers.

I have no problem with cops and the military having weapons. I have no problem with a hunter having a gun and hunting for food. I am TOTALLY 100% against the crinminals and the average joes having guns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

Then I grew up....and traveled the world, and saw the results of the average joe having a gun, and the devastation caused by these weapons. I saw the senseless violence happening in high schools, the guys who go crazy and start firing into the streets, killing innocent by standers.

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What you claim to have witnessed was not a result of the average joe having a gun. The average joe with a gun is not a murderer. You witnessed the result of criminals having guns. Do you think that preventing the average joe, who is a law-abiding citizen, from owning a weapon will stop criminals from shooting people?

Quote:

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I have no problem with cops and the military having weapons. I have no problem with a hunter having a gun and hunting for food. I am TOTALLY 100% against the crinminals and the average joes having guns.

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Well, that's all fine and dandy, but if you ban guns for the criminals and the average joes, the criminals will still have guns...and then what does the average joe do?

I'd use the common Baseball Mogul phrase and tell you it's "sample size". The VAST MAJORITY of law-abiding citizens ("average joes" if you will) are not engaging in the gun violence that you talk about. I'm sorry that you've seen so much violence first-hand, but it's a small percentage of the big picture. I'm sure there are certain war zones in the world that are uncontrolled anarchy and chaos, but that's not the norm.

And even if you are totally 100% against the criminals having guns (which I would be too), they're still going to get them regardless of what any of us think. And again, I don't want myself or my family to be a victim.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

You could make the argument than since the ban took away people's right to choose, overturning it was NOT "un-American" if "American" is defined as "freedom."

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Incorrect. it is impossible to live in the United States in a 'gun free' area.

The only way that there can be choice is to allow BOTH gun-zones and non-gun-zones.

As it is, there are only gun-zones. Hence, no choice.

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Saying that people shouldn't be allowed to own guns IS saying they shouldn't be able to adequately defend themselves against people with guns.

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Should citizens be allowed to posses the same armament as our government? The Constitution states that we have the right to keep and bear arms in order to oppose our armed government.

Expecting the citizenry to defend itself against the US military with currently legal weaponry is much less adequate than expecting an individual to defend themselves without a fire arm against a person with one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

Incorrect. it is impossible to live in the United States in a 'gun free' area.

The only way that there can be choice is to allow BOTH gun-zones and non-gun-zones.

As it is, there are only gun-zones. Hence, no choice.

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As I said, the argument CAN be made that, as a FREE country, Americans, wherever they live, should have the right to choose whether they want to own a gun or not. It is not incorrect that that argument can be made.

Quote:

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The Constitution states that we have the right to keep and bear arms in order to oppose our armed government.

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According to your interpretation.

Opposing the armed government is one reason that the citizens should have the right to keep and bear arms. It is NOT the only reason.

However, this is all completely beside the point. The original topic was simply - should people be allowed to carry guns on college campuses? That shifted to - should people be allowed to own guns?

I'm arguing that yes, people should be allowed to own a gun. I'm not getting into the ins and outs of which guns, etc. I don't know anything about guns. I simply do not believe that the regular citizen should be completely barred from owning a gun. If you want to disagree with me on that, fine, but I'd prefer to not drag the discussion elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BINGLEBOP

I'm late to the thread, but definitely #1. The only policy that has ever been shown to deter mass murder is concealed-carry laws. States that allowed citizens to carry concealed handguns reduced multiple-shooting attacks by 60% and reduced injury and death from the attacks by nearly 80%.

Mass murders at "gun-free zones":

• The deranged student killing 32 people in Virginia Tech before killing himself
• The Amish school shooting in 2006, where the killer murdered five little girls before killing himself
• Columbine in 1999 where the two guys killed 12 people before committing suicide
• Two students in Craighead County, Arkansas, killing five people, including four little girls, before deciding to attempt to escape
• Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, when an adult shooter killed 17 and then committed suicide.

There was no one to stop any of these people. I'd love if we lived in a society where this never happened, but it's the less than 1% of people with easy accessibility to guns that engages in rampant killings. The remainder of the (over) 99% of people seem to get along just fine. It's not as if we're going off shooting everybody just because we have guns. The fact that guns can kill human beings is the whole point and the reason why they're good at deterring violent criminals. Compare the above situations with school shootings where a law-abiding citizen had a gun at the scene:

In 2001, the shooting at the high school in Santee, California. The student began shooting at his classmates and the school activated its "safe-school plan", which unfortunately did not involve anybody having a gun at the school. The school sent in an unarmed trained campus supervisor to stop the killer. The killer shot the "trained campus supervisor". Luckily, a San Diego policeman who was armed was bringing his daughter to school that day. He stopped the killer (with a gun) and held him at bay until more police could arrive.

Only two died. I say "only" simply because it could have been worse.

In 2002, an immigrant student in Virginia started shooting classmates at the Appalachian School of Law. Two classmates in another part of the building retrieved guns from their cars, approached the killer, and forced him to drop his weapon, while a third classmate tackled him until police arrived.

Three died.

A student at Pearl High School in Mississippi had already shot several people at his high school in 1997 and was headed for the junior high school when the assistant principal retrieved a .45 pistol from his car and pointed it at the gunman's head, ending the slaughter.

Two died.

A student attending a junior high school dance at a restaurant in Edinboro, Pennsylvania, started shooting, but the restaurant owner pulled out his shotgun, chased the gunman from the restaurant, and captured him for the police.

One died.

Again, I wish these situations never happened or that they'll never happen to me (or my family). Some people choose to look at the entire world with rose-colored glasses and choose blissfully ignorant over the reality of the world. However, I'm never going to take that chance, which is why I'll be armed. It's a "just in case" scenario for the small fraction of people that choose to break the law and go off killing other people. I'm not going to become a victim just because they decided to break the law. Even if all firearms were banned, criminals would still gain access to them, and then I'm ****ed. I'm going to protect myself and my loved ones. I'd question anybody's love for their family who wouldn't choose that option. Baseball bats and dogs are nice, but no match for a maniac with a gun.

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Bingle, well said.

I am starting to think fili just wants to let communities make the choice...I respect that...but I will be living in a "guns allowed to me zone"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Bingle, well said.

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Anyone could go through and find instances of individual gun owners who shot an innocent person as well.

Quote:

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I am starting to think fili just wants to let communities make the choice...I respect that...but I will be living in a "guns allowed to me zone"

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Where'd you get that idea? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

2) I'm not 'pro-gun' nor am I 'anti-gun'. I think that communities should be given the choice. If a community decides for itself that it wants to be gun free (as DC did) then that should be respected. The Supreme Court, in overturning the handgun ban did something quite un-American (though growing more popular every day) it took away the people's right to choose.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

Anyone could go through and find instances of individual gun owners who shot an innocent person as well.

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I wasn't referring to his examples, i was referring to the way he said his point of view...and backed it with a handful of examples, there are many examples that back both sides....if there weren't, then this wouldn't be a discussion

Well this has been fun...I am off to work again....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickD

you know what, i have changed on this issue over the years. I used to be a extreme, pro-gun, vocal supporter of the right to have as many weapons as you want.

Then I grew up....and traveled the world, and saw the results of the average joe having a gun, and the devastation caused by these weapons. I saw the senseless violence happening in high schools, the guys who go crazy and start firing into the streets, killing innocent by standers.

I have no problem with cops and the military having weapons. I have no problem with a hunter having a gun and hunting for food. I am TOTALLY 100% against the crinminals and the average joes having guns.

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Uhhh...how exactly is a hunter NOT an average joe?

To answer the original question

Choice

Let the individual colleges and communities decide.

That way [editorial] all the paranoia filled gun toters can stay the hell away from me and[/editorial] we can ALL be happy, and feel safe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

Uhhh...how exactly is a hunter NOT an average joe?

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http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...mer_cheney.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

To answer the original question

Choice

Let the individual colleges and communities decide.

That way [editorial] all the paranoia filled gun toters can stay the hell away from me and[/editorial] we can all be happy, and feel safe.

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Agreed.