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Adjusted Sack Rate - gives sacks per pass attempt adjusted for opponent, down, and distanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
Chicago's rank last year - 11th
Denver's - 4th
I think this is the best metric in measuring a line's ability to pass block
from a denver fan:
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As a lifelong Bronco fan, I come to share this venting and perspective.
When McDaniels was hired, I was ****ing pissed off. I hate the Patriots to an unimaginable degree. Whenever people hear how much I hate the Patriots, they can instantly guess that I’m on the drunken downward spiral after breaking up with my girlfriend. No one sober or in a relationship can possibly summon that level of hatred for a sports team. I look like one of those guys screaming and grabbing at the coffin during a funeral riot for an Arab kid shot to death by Israelis. So you can imagine I was upset when they got Belichick’s former gopher to come in here and try to install the Patriot way. **** THAT. The best case scenario for this smug little **** is that we turn into the Patriots West??? Bloodless press coverage, joyless victories, dink and dunk ****ing ******** offense, deception, subterfuge, condescension, arrogance. Holy ****. I’d rather the Cos go 8-8 the rest of my life than win a Super Bowl the Patriots way. Not to mention that my ideal coaching hire, call me crazy, was a hard-nose, experienced ass-kicking defensive coach who could come in, install some discipline, turn around the defense, and not screw up the offense. Maybe a harder version of Tony Dungy. So they go bring in this little ****?? And he tries to trade my 25-yr old franchise quarterback. You got to be ****ing kidding me. Cutler is flawed for sure, but he also gives a **** and has all the ability to be a Super Bowl MVP someday. Mistake-prone? Forces things? Sure. But there’s a lot of ****ing pressure in knowing that you have to score on EVERY offensive possession because the defense just might give up 50 today. I think in those first few meetings, Cutler could sniff out McDaniels’ ******** immediately. And maybe Jay was a little hungover or tipsy, and not giving off the best impression himself. But then he got lied to, straight up. I would have bailed on this team too. ANYONE would have done the same thing. You want me to play for this chuckle****? No. ****ing. Way. Good luck. I’d pack my **** up and move to Detroit rather than play for some smirking weasel **** who wanted me to throw 5 yard outs all game all the while thinking that Matt Cassel could be doing it better.
What this feels like exactly, is that your parents get divorced. You didn’t have the perfect home by any means, but you were pretty happy, and there was a chance each year would be better than the last. Your parents keep telling you they’d stay together, but then one day, out of nowhere, it’s over. You never even saw them fighting. Now, you got a bunch of brothers and a couple of them hated your dad, but everyone managed to get along. And even those guys who hated your dad, they’re not exactly happy. They really don’t know what to feel. It just all feels so wrong. So now they’re divorced, and your beloved grandfather, who’s never done anything but try to make this family happier, inexplicably hooks your mom up with some ******* of a guy who’s almost your age, saying she needs to get on with her life. And now this ******* is around the house all the time, ****ing your mom, loudly, slapping you on the back and calling you “chief” and **** like that, all with a big ****-eating grin on his face. And he starts talking about “our family” and “we” and this and that. And you’re thinking, “listen muther****er, you’re not IN this family.” So he starts changing the house around, and it’s okay at first. Then he starts messing with your mom, changing the way she dresses, walks and talks to make her more like his ex-wife. You know this guy’s ex-wife, and she is a known and notorious ****. So this is a pretty disturbing development. But then, without your permission, he tries to give away the family dog. Now, your dog ain’t perfect, and he ain’t pretty, but he rocks the **** at fetch and you love him. Now this douchebag wants to stroll in, give him away, and pick up some new dog, like a poodle or some gay **** that you definitely DO NOT WANT. Then you get all pissed off when you find out, and he tries to play it off like it didn’t happen and lies about it. But you know, you definitely know, this shady ***** is up to something. So, he finally goes ahead and does it, and instead of a new gay poodle, you get a dog who looks kind of like your old dog, only he can’t play fetch for ****, pisses on the carpet all the time, and smells something awful. To make matters worse, half your brothers start acting like they actually like this new boyfriend, and start talking **** about your old dog and your dad. And new guy starts bringing his kids over to hang out, and all they do is talk about how awesome their dad is. All this ends up splitting your family in half, creating a rift that maybe can never be fixed.
That’s what living in Bronco Land is like right now. 1000 comments a day on the Denver Post stories about this situation, half of them calling Cutler a crybaby and the other half calling McDaniels a douchebag. So, fully half the Broncos fans are going to be cheering this team to 0-16 out of spite, with the other half cheering the Bears to 0-16 out of spite, with only a scant few left to root for the Broncos to have any success.
So now I grit my teeth whenever I see McD and try to smile and pretend like I don’t hate him. Because I can’t abandon this team, no matter how much I want to. But I’ve got to look at that **** on the sidelines every game, and enjoy watching my team turn into the ****ING Patriots, only without the success.
And his press conference today, where he only referred to Cutler as “the player”? Oh, Josh, you smug dick you. I’m really going to enjoy this next season listening to more **** like that.
I think if I could just punch him square in the face a couple of times, and yell at Bowlen for about 15 minutes, I could get back on the bandwagon for real. But without that, I’ll be struggling.
And I am rooting for Cutler to do well in Chicago though. Why? Because **** Josh McDaniels, that’s why.
There is a part of me that still believes this is some brilliant demonic plan cooked up by Belichick to destroy the Broncos, using his gopher underling. But, hey, maybe we’ll have a good year.
And thus, my embarrassment with being involved with this team is growing.
Something tells me Belichick would be plotting against San Diego and the Colts...Denver would be an afterthought. :D
haha, since when did common sense get in the way of conspiracy theories?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
Right now he's talking to Jeff Gilooly, trying to get him to smash Peyton Manning in the knee with a metal pipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by etothep
This was the Worst Trade In NFL History
2. Colts trade Elway to Broncos
John Elway wrote his legend in Denver, not Baltimore.
The Deal: When No. 1 pick John Elway refused to play in Baltimore, the Colts traded the draft rights to the Stanford quarterback to Denver in exchange for quarterback Mark Hermann, the rights to offensive tackle Chris Hinton and a first-round pick in the 1984 draft, which ended up being guard Ron Solt.
The Impact: Elway became a legend in Denver, where he won more games (148) than any quarterback in NFL history and led the Broncos to five Super Bowl appearances, winning two. He finished his 16-year career ranked second in passing yardage (51,475), third in TD passes (300) and first in fourth-quarter comebacks (47).
Hinton played the first seven of his 13 NFL seasons with the Colts. He was selected to seven Pro Bowls and chosen All-Pro five times. Hermann, a journeyman quarterback who threw 36 interceptions and just 16 TD passes in his 11-year career, played just five games for the Colts in the first of his two stints with the team. Solt played in the NFL for nine seasons, including the first five with the Colts.
while a bit early to make that claim IMO, it understandably has been very bad thus far.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJaker
Cutler struggles I think are alot to do with the system. Maybe he's not the QB many thought he was or maybe Denvers system was just much more comfortable for him. The biggest problem is that if they replace their OC and/or coach then yet another new system comes in for Cutler. Its not really setting him up for success. The smart move for them would be to install a system similar to what Denver had when Cutler was successful and hope to revitalize his confidence and game.
I can think of worse trades however.
- Gruden from Oak to TB for two 1sts a second and a 4th ranks up there. Admittedly, i thought it was a great deal for Oak but couldn't have ended up worse. They horrifically bungled all those picks, and then were clobbered in the Super Bowl by their old coach sending them into a southward spiral.
- Herchal Walker from Dallas to Minn. really was the deal that set up the most recent Dallas dynasty.
- The Raiders yet again make my list sending Moss to NE for a 4th rd pick, a guy no longer in the league.
- Jerome Bettis to the Steelers for a couple mid round picks to the Rams. The only significant Ram selected was Lawrence Phillips who I think holds an NFL record with like 50 charges of domestic abuse.
- And finally one that always comes up in these discussions is Favre to ATL for a dance. While its hard to fault ATL because nobody expected Favre to be a HOF QB Ironman.....in retrospect its likely the most lopsided deal ever.
I just feel bad for all those excited Bears fans.
I see a downside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sox442
Your guy throws 25 picks.
:D
Do I love this deal too much because I'm a Denver fan? Yes.
Does it matter? No.
Nice juicy Chicago 1st rounder this year. :D
Agreed on all counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Ahman Green and a 5th for Fred Vinson and a 6th
Jeff George for Andre Rison, Chris Hinton, and a pick
Ricky Williams for a draft
Ryan Leaf to Chargers
Steve Young from Bucs
Craig Morton for Randy White
This is what happens when a guy goes from playing behind one of the best pass protecting lines in the league and throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal to playing behind one of the worst lines in the league and throwing to Devin Hester and Earl Bennett.
Maybe Not the worst But the most Lopsided
Bear Get
Jay Cutler
9 Losses
26 Picks
Bronco Get
Orton
2 First Round Picks
6-0 Start
2-8 Finish
Really....Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJaker
Minnesota Vikings Received
* RB Herschel Walker
* Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1990 (54) (Mike Jones)
* San Diego's 5th round pick - 1990 (116) (Reggie Thornton)
* Dallas's 10th round pick - 1990 (249) (Pat Newman)
* Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1991 (68) (Jake Reed)
Dallas Cowboys Received
* LB Jesse Solomon
* LB David Howard
* CB Issiac Holt
* RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
* DE Alex Stewart
* Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
* Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
* Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
* Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
* Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (38) (Dixon Edwards)
* Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
* Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
* Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) - (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)
Not only that but...
Minnesota got screwed many times over.Quote:
Dallas ended up with a total of six of Minnesota's picks over the succeeding years, two of which were used to draft Emmitt Smith and Darren Woodson. Jimmy Johnson used the other draft picks to make trades with other teams around the NFL. One of the trades led to obtaining the first overall draft pick in 1991, which was used to draft Russell Maryland.
not even close. Again, Herschal Walker is generally accepted as one of the worse/most lopsided deals of all time. The Favre & Moss deals i'd call more lopsided as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJaker
1st rd picks aren't guarentees...and Cutler is better than he's played. This deal is too early to judge, but I doubt it gets near the "most lopsided" category.
What in you mind is the difference between worse & most lopsided in trade review BTW?
I think this trade needs to really be evaluated in a few years when we see what the Bronco's get out of these draft picks and maybe see how Cutler pans out with possibly some reliable receivers. I agree, I think Cutler is better than what he has done this past season.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Well he sure had a nice finish to the season, throwing 4 TD passes in their last two games and both were wins leaving the Bears at 7-9. With hardly a running game this season (Forte struggled mightily), no #1 receiver to throw, hardly an offensive line, no Brian Urlacher on defense, I'd say he did a decent job. He's a gunslinger and takes many risks like a Brett Favre. He's obviously not as polished, but he will get there. The Bears know what they need and will hopefully draft to address those needs. I like Cutler, hate the Bears, but would like to see Cutler pan out into a top tier QB.
The single biggest issue the Bears have is that offensive line. Cutler was getting beaten up on a regular basis this year, and I think a lot of Forte's struggles can be chalked up to a complete lack of consistent run blocking.
I thought it would be fun to revisit this Blockbuster trade after the season.
The package the Broncos rec'd was essentially Orton, Chicago's 2009 1st rounder, and Chicago's 2010 1st rounder, and Chicago's 2009 3rd round pick while the package the Bears rec'd was Cutler and Denver's 2009 5th round pick.
So essentially the trade worked out like this:
Bears: Got QB Jay Cutler and used the 5th round pick to select WR Johnny Knox.
Broncos: Got Orton for one season (is an Unrestricted Free Agent with a new CBA, and a restricted Free Agent if the owners and players kill the golden goose). Broncos used Chicago's 2009 1st round draft pick to select DE Robert Ayers with the 18th overall selection, and used Chicago's 2009 third round pick packaged with their own 2009 third round pick to trade for Pittsburgh's 2009 2nd and 4th round picks. Essentially the Broncos used the Bears 5th rounder (via trade) to select TE Richard Quinn with the overall 64th selection of the 2009 draft.
So, at the end of the day would you rather have:
Jay Cutler as your franchise QB and WR Johnny Knox
or
Kyle Orton as your QB for a year, DE Robert Ayers, TE Richard Quinn, and a either the 10th or 11th overall selection in the 2010 draft.
I'm a huge Broncos fan/season ticket holder, and I have been for years. The being a Broncos fan part always made sense, as I was born and raised in Colorado, however the season ticket holder part never made a whole lot of sense the years I was living in MN, WI, MI, and MA.
My take is that excluding Phillip Rivers, Joe Flacco, and Mark Sanchez that Jay Cutler is the best young QB in the game, without argument, and that most franchises desperately try to find their next franchise QB for the better part of a decade, and longer for most. A franchise QB is the hardest commodity in all of sport for any team to acquire.
A Cy Young ace starter can seemingly be had every season in MLB. As can sluggers with huge albatross contracts. In the NBA superstar once in a lifetime players almost always are traded away instead of finishing their careers in once city. Who cares about the NHL...
Jay Cutler left the Denver Broncos offense leaving behind one of the best offensive lines in football and arguably the best LT as well (at least under Shanahan/Dennison and before McMistake tried to run his daddy's high school pulling guard system), arguably the absolute best young talent in terms of skill position players (Marshall, Royal, Scheffler, Graham, Hillis etc.) of any NFL team and actually managed to score more points with the Bears offense than the Broncos managed to score on offense with Orton/Simms.
Cutler was forced to constantly play the gunslinger, throwing into double coverage, forcing throws when nothing was there because without his passing attack there was NOTHING to the Bears offense.
Cutler is a great young QB, and that was revealed playing for one of the most talent poor offenses in recent NFL memory and an offensive line of doom.
Looking back five or ten years from now will the Broncos really be better or will the Bears?
I think the problems for the Bears have nothing to do with the talent missing from two first round picks, but from a roster devoid of talent completely.
I think at the end of the day the Broncos were wise to have traded away two first round picks to take a flier on a college QB from Vanderbilt named Jay Cutler. I think the Broncos were idiots to trade that young QB, once he had become a Pro Bowl player and revealed that he was indeed something special for merely the same two first round picks, with a throw in hack of a QB, and swapping a third for a fifth.
For crying out loud, remember that an old Gary Zimmerman was worth two first round draft picks when the Broncos traded for him from Minnesota, what the heck is a young Cutler worth in that context?
The Bears gave up nothing compared to what they received. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if this train wreck didn't end up with BOTH Scheffler and Marshall ending up in Chicago just to spite McDaniels.
Five years from know Chicago is one of the most relevant teams in the NFL competing for a Super Bowl. Five years from now McDaniels has been fired and the Broncos are completely irrelevant.
You left off Matt Ryan in your young QB list. Also, if you include Rivers, you have to include Ben since they were in the same draft. Freeman and Stafford will be the future also.
Who says Orton is walking? Yeah he's a FA but the Broncos surely are interested in re-signing the kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
So when is Jay gonna prove this? Because even in his 3 years in Denver he wasn't even close to the level of play Philip Rivers has shown and I'm sorry, Aaron Rodgers is better then both Joe Flacco and a ROOKIE Mark Sanchez. Not to mention Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
Not to mention, an attitude problem on this kid. He practically ran HIMSELF out of Denver. And we're 8-8 with or without him.
Bears scored 327, Broncos 326. They essentially scored the exact same amount of points. Also, Peyton Hillis. Did you watch a Denver game this season? Kid hardly played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
Already crucifing McDaniels are we? First year head coach, 33 years old, I highly doubt he's going to get worse after this year. Lest we forget, we started 6-0.
Cutler isn't forced to play gunslinger. That's what he is. He's a gunslinger. He threw 18 picks in his last year with the Broncos and 14 the year before that. It doesn't matter what offense he's got. He's gonna throw close to the same amount of INT's as touchdowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
I guess we won't know for five or ten more years...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
Hack of a QB? Orton is certainly not elite or even great but he's no hack. He garners respect around the league in coaches and GM's alike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
The different being of course that Zimmerman was a veteran, aging LT and Jay was a young QB. As much as should be put on the LT's back, a QB will always outweigh him and rightly so. This is a QB driven league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
Don't tell Lovie Smith that first part, he might lose his job over this. And I highly doubt Marshall will fit in in Chicago. He's got a mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
Pat Bowlen isn't an idiot, and I hate the things people are saying about McDaniels. The guy is 33 and it's been ONE SEASON. I bet you were right there on his shoulders when we were 6-0. "THE WHIZ KID!" "THE MIRACLE MAKER"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
This team's talent level was that of a 6-10 team AT BEST. 3-13 was their realistic prediction. And yet, here we are. Wanting the coach out because we went 2-8 down the stretch with an aging defense, an offense that was in it's first year of a brand new system and a lot of offseason shenanigans.
The Broncos have one of the best winning percentages of all time for reason, they aren't stupid. They never have been, they never will be.
The Bears better fix that ship fast or they are gonna lose Cutler to a sinking level of confidence in a conservative low talent offense.
Okay, lets take inventory here. The only things that changed on the offensive side of the ball this year was the hiring of an offensive "genius" head coach who inherited the NFL's most dynamic offense from 2008, and then he added to that offense by taking the FIRST RB in the draft. His first genius move was trying to trade for Cassell, completely alienating his Pro Bowl QB in the process. Not only did he not manage to actually put that deal together, but after he lied about it multiple times he managed to ensure that Cutler and he would never be able to work together, as there could just never be any trust in that relationship. So McMistake's HANDPICKED successor was Orton. Orton walked into a situation with a better offensive line and more skill position player talent than any QB in the NFL enjoys, bar none.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
While Orton was able to put up some empty meaningless statistics, he was a complete failure as a leader, Quarterback, and passer. Almost immediately it was apparent that he was completely incapable of making NFL throws to the wideouts, and in order to not throw multiple picks every game the wide receivers became essentially non-existent in the game plan. Eddie Royal, the previous year's #1st round draft pick who came only several catches shy of 100 catches in his ROOKIE year completely disappeared. Tony Scheffler who had been one of the most dangerous downfield TE threats in the NFL became almost irrelevant, again because Orton completely lacked the accuracy and consistently to get the ball downfield (Orton has the arm strength). WR Brandon Stokley also became a forgotten man.
Orton was a complete failure in Denver as a QB. Every single game was defined by the inability of the offense to put together drives and to score points. Sure Orton was able to put up context empty numbers in McDaniels stat friendly system. However, those numbers don't reveal how completely ineffective Orton really was.
Phillip Rivers, though a complete punk, makes more high risk high difficulty throws than any QB in the NFL. There isn't any comparison. Aaron Rodgers is a good QB. Joe Flacco is a better QB than Rodgers, however they are on different timelines. Rodgers had years to groom behind Favre and made the most of that time. Flacco is in only his second season. Context is key. Mark Sanchez is the real deal. Matt Ryan is completely overated, Eli Manning isn't even good, and Ben Rothlisberger wouldn't even be a starter if he had played for the Broncos with that '08 defense, or on the '09 Bears forced to completely carry the team. I love Ben, I love that his play is reminiscent of his, and my, childhood hero, Elway. However, Rothlisberger is very much like another Pittsburgh QB, in Bradshaw, in that he is very very lucky to play (have played) in Pittsburgh. Put Ben in Alex Smith's role in San Francisco, in David Carr's role in Houston, even in Jay Cutler's role in Denver and Ben wouldn't have been able to hold onto a starting role. He has been supported by a Super Bowl quality roster his entire career. However, I'd take him in a heartbeat over Orton, and I wonder what number he'd wear in Denver?Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Denver was 8-8 in 2008 because of Cutler. That Denver defense was absolutely horrific. Cutler had to play at a high level EVERY SINGLE game just to keep Denver competitive. Perhaps you forget that EVERY SINGLE running back was injured that season. One can not overstate how horrible that '08 Denver defense was, neither can one understate how very good the '09 Denver defense was. The difference between the two records (both being 8-8) is that Orton would have managed maybe one or two wins in the Denver '08 context, and Cutler managed 7-9 in Chicago with absolutely no offensive weapons, amongst the worst offensive lines in football, and an equally horrific defense. Cutler in Denver in '09 with Mike Nolan's defense would have been a thing to behold...
I did, apparently you didn't. Context is key, my comment was specific to the number of points each offense scored. Perhaps you weren't watching all those Broncos games where the defense was putting up touchdowns. Count only the points that each offense scored, as I specified. So before you criticize others for not watching the games, try actually reading what it is that you think you have an opinion about.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
I'll use your own comments...Do you even watch the games? You're counting a fluke freak play in Cincinnati as a win are you? Denver was very lucky to finish 8-8. They could have easily lost four of the four games they won. Easily...Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
McDaniels is completely overrated as a coach. He inherited the best pass blocking and run blocking offensive line in fooball, a system that has worked flawlessly since 1996 when Alex Gibbs installed it. Rick Dennison has done an outstanding job with the new group and Clady and Harris have the opportunity to displace Gary Zimmerman and Tony Jones as the franchise's best bookends. Weigmann is one of the better centers in the game. What does McMistake do upon coming to Denver? He installs his Daddy's high school pulling guard system. That is the most inane and arrogant thing I've ever seen an NFL head coach do. What works in Ohio high school football has no relevancy to the NFL. NFL linebackers are just too quick, powerful, and explosive for any running system predicated on a guard getting out in front to work. That was clearly revealed this season as the vaunted Denver running game completely disappeared. Keep in mind that even the running back signed from working at the Aurora Mall in the '08 season (Tatum Bell, who Denver had traded away with George Foster to acquire Dry Blyto replace Darrent Williams - RIP) managed to average over 5.5 ypc. With the first running back taken in the entire '09 draft, McMistake's high school system resulted in Moreno averaging 3.8 ypc. Only 3.8 yards per carry in Denver, with that offensive line that had multiple backs averaging well over 5+ ypc in '08, and this with the first running back taken in the draft.
Here is some advice. Stop drinking the McDaniels Kool-Aid. The propaganda out of the Denver Post, Channel 4, and 850 KOA radio is totally pro-McMistake. Most of the Broncos sports beat guys hated Shanahan for how he had no patience for their idiotic questions and complete lack of football IQ.
McDaniels was instrumental in New England in implementing illegal helmet radios for defensive players on the field (that rule change followed Spygate with no due diligence by the NFL media did you notice?), using illegal tape of opponents offensive tendencies, and also by using illegal interference to jam opponents QB helmet radio communication.
What McDaniels doesn't have is anything close to the background and experience one would expect to acquire a job as prestigious as the Denver Broncos head coaching gig.
McDaniels is destroying the Broncos organization and fan base. Where I sit on the fifth level of Mile High (I refuse to call it Invesco) most fans who have bled orange for the better part of thirty years aren't even thinking about renewing their tickets. Its a common topic that McDaniels managed to finally suffocate Broncomania. A significant portion of absolutely die hard Broncos fans were rooting AGAINST the Broncos this past season. You wouldn't believe how many boos I heard this year. Lets just say more than I've heard in the past twenty years combined.
Again, to use your comment...Do you actually watch the games?Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Cutler was constantly forced to make plays in '08, with the pressure to have to score on every SINGLE drive due to the horrible defense. In Chicago in '09 Cutler was forced, all season long, to force the ball into double and triple coverage every game. The alternative would have been to accept the inevitable defeat with an atrocious defense and absolutely no real talent at the skill positions or along the offensive line. The truth is that Cutler is THE CHICAGO BEARS right now.
Orton is completely the opposite. He is a player that rides the back of teams with a stout defense without every having the ability to make a play. In every NFL game there are plays that the quarterback has to make for the team to have a chance to win the game. Orton not only does not EVER make those plays he doesn't even try. Cutler makes a great many of those plays, and its ridiculous how many games the Bears won, when they really shouldn't have been competitive at all in '09. Again, Cutler scored more points offensively than Orton scored in Denver with all of those skill position players...
Wow. Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Almost every GM in the NFL predicted that the Broncos would win only between 3-5 games in '09. Chicago's number one priority in the previous offseason was to upgrade the quarterback position and stated this overtly. I think Denver will resign Orton because McDaniels realizes that is sink or swim with his hand chosen QB after he ran Cutler out of town.
Respect around the league? Who are you kidding. NFL Defensive coordinators have so little respect for Orton that every defense the Broncos faced was stacking against the run realizing that Orton was completely incapable of making throws more than ten yards down the field without throwing multiple picks. Every defense following the bye week had Orton pegged. Every defense played Orton the same way. They knew he couldn't make downfield NFL throws accurately. Orton got away with a couple against the Redskins, but even then Washingon won the game because Orton is not an NFL quarterback.
So an aging veteran Left Tackle was worth the two first round picks Denver gave up for him, but Cutler, a very young Franchise QB, a Pro-Bowl QB, a carry a team on his back QB wasn't worth what Chicago gave up?Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
I've never been a fan of Marshall. His actions, and the actions of his entourage led to the murder of Darrent Williams at K-Mart's Birthday bash in LoDo. Darrent was one of my favorite players. BMarsh has chronic history of domestic violence against women.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
However, he is one of the best WR in the NFL, and no receiver is as dominant after the catch at making something out of nothing as he is...
If you don't think its gotten personal between Marshall, Scheffler, and Cutler against McDaniels you don't have clue how divided that locker room really is.
Pat Bowlen is complete idiot. This is the same owner that used to stand on the sidelines in his idiotic fur coats because he wanted to hang out with the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Pat Bowlen has been through this before. Perhaps you're a johnny come lately Bronco fan, but let me fill you in...the last time a head coach decided they wanted to trade away their franchise quarterback in Denver Bowlen actually have pause. Reeves had a deal in place, in principal, and was trading away Elway. The deal was made and done. Reeves's contract gave him COMPLETE control of the organization, having Bowlen sign off on it was a formality only. However, Bowlen realized that as great of a coach as Reeves was, Elway was the franchise. In the end Elway had a tantrum when he found out that Reeves had tried to trade him. Elway demanded that either Reeves go, or that he be traded. Bowlen made the right decision then.
However, make no mistake Bowlen has done less with more than probably any owner in the modern NFL. First he fired Reeves and then wasted years of Elway's prime hiring Wade Phillips and his disasters with the draft are still legendary. The smartest thing Bowlen ever did was hiring back Shanahan.
Make no mistake, the success the Broncos have enjoyed has been a result of Reeves, Shanahan and Elway. Not anything Bowlen has done...
The Broncos had the best offense in the NFL in '08 even with EVERY single running back going down with injuries. No offense, no even New Orleans, was as explosive, although they put up more points. The difference that the casual rah-rah fans don't understand is that the NFL is a dynamic game. An offense only exists in the context of the defense, and vice-versa.
Truly the '08 offensive was incredible, in the context of how bad the '08 defense was, just as its true that the '09 defense was dominant, in the context of just how ineffecive the '09 offense was. Both points allowed and points scored for the '08 and '09 squads are skewed by he complete ineffectiveness of one of the units.
...and I most certainly was not on the Broncos bandwagon. I was sick to my stomach over this offseason and the early start. McDaniels is the worst head coach of the Denver Broncos in my lifetime, and that's saying something. I seriously thought about cancelling my season tickets. However, I was able to add a ticket to my package due to all the other fans giving their's up in disgust, without even moving.
Peyon Hillis already had the best hands of any back in the NFL. Shanahan was quoted multiple times as saying that Hillis was playing at the Pro-Bowl level as a receiving back, and this was before Hillis had the run carries in '08. McDaniels refused to use Hillis because he is an arrogant man. The Broncos were stuffed all season long on 3rd and 1, and 3rd and 2. There is a reason that around Denver Knowshon Moreno is referred to as No-Gain.
McDaniels inherited Culer, Scheffler, Marshall and Hillis. They will all be gone after this offseason. Eddie Royal and Ryan Clady will leave as soon as they become free agents. The buzz already is that McDaniels is costing Clady millions...
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, but remember that cults tend to only end tragically.
As for the Broncos All-Time winning percentages...who are you kidding. The Broncos still haven't caught up the to the Raiders in terms of wins in that matchup, and I don't think Denver will ever be as dominant ever again as they were under Elway/Shanahan.
Bowlen inherited Elway when he bought the franchise. You can't give him credit for that. You also can't give him credit for the Shanahan hiring, because he did that at Elway's insistence, and after the Wade Phillips debacle.
Sheez...do you actually know anything about football and the Denver Broncos, or do you just root for the colors?
All of the success of this past season is clearly due to how brilliant Mike Nolan was in his implementation of the 3-4 defense. Fairly Shanahan was a fool to have gone away from the 3-4 for all these years. The Denver Broncos were the first team in the NFL to implement the 'Oklahoma' defense under Layer Coyer, and old time Broncos fans have been clamoring for years for the return of the 3-4. The 4-3 is a great defense, for a team that has perennially has access to high first round draft picks, because multi-technique defensive lineman are franchise players in the NFL. You can play the 3-4 with journeyman lineman, as the Broncos did in '09. You've seen the results of playing with journeyman linemen in the 4-3 from '06 through '08.
Don't be a cheerleader.
Don't think of your favorite team in terms of 'we' and 'they'. Its ignorant. Think critically, and for gosh sakes, think for yourself.
The Denver Post Broncos coverage is about as sophisticated as a high school pep rally. The Post realizes that as the mood for all things Broncos goes, so goes subscription rates. Its been that way for years. The same pollyanna treatment takes place at 850KOA radio because Broncos fans are completely bandwagon fans. Unless the local media paints the Broncos fortunes in a positive light, they lose listeners, audience share, and subscribers.
Football is a dynamic game, not at all as simple as baseball. The average fan can not begin to understood the complexity of formations, play calling, and player responsibilities in an NFL game.
No position in football is as misunderstood as the quarterbacking position, it is not as simple as when the team wins the quarterback is good (Terry Bradshaw, Ben Rothlisberger), and neither is it as simple as when the team loses or interceptions are thrown the team is not good (Steve Young in Tampa, Jay Cutler).
Good god those are incredibly long posts just about Cutler.
About Cutler, hes not all that because he turns the ball over. Until he stops doing that, hes a middle to lower quality QB.
Ok, tell me that in five years when they are both comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
Mark Sanchez has done nothing to prove he's the real deal. Sure...he did good in the beginning, but he disappears against teams with good D's. 12 TDs to 20 picks...not exactly the "real deal" (of course, Aikman and Bradshaw had worse rookie seasons).Quote:
Mark Sanchez is the real deal.
No he isn't. Please prove how he is overrated. One of the best rookie seasons for a QB, turning around a bad a team to a playoff contender the next year, comparisons to Peyton even...certainly better than Flacco or Sanchez.Quote:
Matt Ryan is completely overated
Yeah he kinda sucksQuote:
Eli Manning isn't even good
Uh, no.Quote:
and Ben Rothlisberger wouldn't even be a starter if he had played for the Broncos with that '08 defense, or on the '09 Bears forced to completely carry the team. I love Ben, I love that his play is reminiscent of his, and my, childhood hero, Elway. However, Rothlisberger is very much like another Pittsburgh QB, in Bradshaw, in that he is very very lucky to play (have played) in Pittsburgh. Put Ben in Alex Smith's role in San Francisco, in David Carr's role in Houston, even in Jay Cutler's role in Denver and Ben wouldn't have been able to hold onto a starting role. He has been supported by a Super Bowl quality roster his entire career. However, I'd take him in a heartbeat over Orton, and I wonder what number he'd wear in Denver?
Ben has been handicapped by the predictable playcalling of Bruce Arians. It's rediculous to say he won't be a starter when he put up great numbers with one of the worst olines in football. His scrambling is one of the best, if not the best, in the NFL right now. Put him Denver's Oline in 2008 and they will be unstoppable on offense. Put him in Chicago and he'll probably be the same in Pittsburgh with less weapons but probably a better playcaller.
You can say that for every QB not named Peyton Manning. Brady in San Fran or Houston would suck, and so will just about every QB with no weapons. Sure, Ben had weapons, but so did all great QBs. I don't see what point you are making here.
Terry Bradshaw wasn't even surrounded by HOF players when he first arrived. They were drafted. The Steelers ****ing sucked before he and the HOF roster came. I never seen him play live, but even I know he had one of the great longballs and called his own plays, in a much different game than today.
It's absurd to say Ben is only great because of the team around him. They never made it past the slump of getting past the first rounds of the playoffs with QBs like Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddux, even with The Bus and Ward on offense, and one of the best O-lines in football at that time. When Ben came, the Steelers won the Superbowl his second year and another three years later, with a worse line, a worse RB, a worst O-Coord, but I must admit better recieving options.
Ben gets sacked, but only after moving around and avoid getting sacked much earilier because the o-line is pure ********, and factor in predictable pass calls on every play, it's amazing he hasn't been sacked more. Ben gets sacked so many times I'm surprised he hasn't suffered a major injury. He's hard to bring down, has a good arm, has good feet, and probably would excel in other teams because every other team probably has a better line than the Steelers, even with weaker receiver options.
Everyone's lucky to play in Pitt. But so is Rivers in SD in passhappy offense, Peyton in Indy with Wayne, Clark, and before Harrison, Brady with Moss and Welker, Rodgers with Jennings, and [/insert good QB+good receiver duo].
Please explain to me why you think Bradshaw and Ben are only good because of their team. Can I say Young is only good because he had Rice? Montana too? Peyton would be nothing without Harrison? Ben leads the team to victories with a craptastic fourth quarter D, stupid playcalling, and a porous O-line in 09, all while setting career highs in passing. The 2009 Steelers were not a Superbowl-quality team this year, I'm pleasantly surprised they didn't finish 7-9. Again, Bradshaw called his own plays, and while his stats don't defend how great he was, Bradshaw helped led the Steelers to 4 Superbowls after the Steelers were the Post-Raven Browns of the NFL. You can't succeed without weapons.Quote:
No position in football is as misunderstood as the quarterbacking position, it is not as simple as when the team wins the quarterback is good (Terry Bradshaw, Ben Rothlisberger), and neither is it as simple as when the team loses or interceptions are thrown the team is not good (Steve Young in Tampa, Jay Cutler).
LOL at Reeves being a great coach. I stopped reading after that. He's a good coach. NO where near great.
Provide stats as to why any of those QB's are "good" or "not good" as you say it. Provide facts.
Also, Rivers got 3rd in MVP voting this year buddy. What has Cutler done?
Here it is again. If you're going to say this, insult my intelligence. And make a claim like this: PUT THE NUMBERS UP. My guess is, either you can't find the numbers or you just didn't both looking. Which leads me to believe you just made it up. I was gonna post the numbers. But I decided not to, it's your point. You provide the facts. Broncos D scored 3 TD's by the way. 3.Quote:
I did, apparently you didn't. Context is key, my comment was specific to the number of points each offense scored. Perhaps you weren't watching all those Broncos games where the defense was putting up touchdowns. Count only the points that each offense scored, as I specified. So before you criticize others for not watching the games, try actually reading what it is that you think you have an opinion about.
And you do? I don't get why you think you're this all knowing czar of football and we are swimming in this sea of wrong when it comes to football.Quote:
If you don't think its gotten personal between Marshall, Scheffler, and Cutler against McDaniels you don't have clue how divided that locker room really is.
Please, please, please. If you're going to debate don't just sit there and insult my or anyone here's intelligence. Or else I won't take you seriously. And I'm already done with this debate because of that post.
Alright, see ya.
This. Matt Ryan is a fantastic young QB, he's gonna be one of "those guys" moving forward. Sure, he had a down year this year, but the whole team did in comparison to last year. Plus he was adjusting to shouldering more responsibility and the coaches opening up the playbook for him a bit more, and all the injuries the team had didn't help.Quote:
Originally Posted by President
Anyways, why don't we wait to evaluate this trade a few years, like 5 or 10 or 20. For all we know the Broncos draft a HoF QB in this draft and Cutler turns into Kerry Collins or Vinny Testaverde or some other goodish but not at all great QB.
Jay Cutler and Kerry Collins mentioned in a post.
I can see those two being mentioned together for quite awhile.
Talk about two massive posts of empty posturing and rhetoric. Good grief.
Dont forget they had like 5 or 6 games where they had to play a team coming off a bye week, very tough to deal with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Yeah trying to explain why a guy that lead the NFL in interceptions is better than most elite QB's is absolute garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
Again, I'll mention this...context is key. This is a thread discussing the aspects of Cutler getting traded to the Bears, and my comments were part of a conversation with another poster along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by President
The irony here, and its irony because it seems completely lost on you is that by your very claim that "just about every QB with no weapons"..."would suck" is made here, in succession to my points about Cutler, in this very thread.
Um...try to follow along maybe?
Here we go. My point was that the offensive in Denver was the most explosive in the NFL in 2008, but due to the dynamic nature of the game (defense and offense) New Orleans put up better stats and numbers (due to the atrocious Denver defense and how often Denver didn't have the ball, and couldn't get it back). My point was that Cutler went to a situation in Chicago where there were (pay attention now...) which matches your statemtent of a QB in a situation where there are "no weapons." I then made the point that Denver's offense (absolutely top tier skill position wise, taking a back seat to no team in the NFL, and the Denver O-Line McMistake's schemes aside are one of the best as well) actually scored less points than Chicago's offense (probably the worst in the NFL in terms of skill position player talent and O-Line quality).
So I've got to ask, what point are you trying to make exactly?
Cutler was able to beat SEC powerhouse teams with accountants and anathesiologists at Vanderbilt. Cutler directed the most explosive offense in the NFL in 2008, and in 2009, scored more points (with less than any other NFL offense had to work with) than that same Denver offense with McMistake's handpicked QB replacement Orton.
As for Ben Rothlisberger, keep thinking he's a great QB all the way to his HOF induction. Take your kids to Canton and show them Terry Bradshaw's bust. Tell the kids that Rothlisberger and Bradshaw were two of the greatest to ever play the game. Watch your kids lose all respect for you...
John Madden once said that John Elway was the closest thing to a one man team the NFL had (and would ever) see. The NFL game is so completely dependent on eleven players skill level that its ridiculous how Brady was touted as "greatest ever" when his heightened production, and New England's record setting metrics set the new bar. Its just a testament to how little even NFL analysts really understand about the game. The fact that Randy Moss was the common denominator in the old records New England was breaking, and the new ones, was lost on seemingly everyone as Brady was being crowned. There is a "greatest ever" in New England and it ain't the QB. That offense produces stats prodigiously, but make no mistake Brady is a cog in that system, not the talent that produces the results. For crying out loud Orton was on of the worst QBs in 2009 in that same system, and his 2009 numbers are just spectacular. However, the point isn't to put up good statistics while losing, the point is to win.
To that end I respect the game of Rothlisberger. He'll do whatever it takes to try and win a game. However in the end in the discussion of QBs, only one truly stands out.
John Elway made it to FIVE super bowls. More than Favre, Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw, and Marino who enjoyed HOFers up and down their rosters. Elway went to three Super Bowls with teams that weren't even good. Factor in the AFC Championship game against Buffalo that Denver lost on Elway's errant pick six (the only TD Buffalo scored) and you're almost talking about a QB that went to six QBs.
I've never seen a QB in the NFL raise a bad team up on his shoulders to play at a competitive level other than NFL, not other than Elway. Now I have, and sadly that QB is Cutler.
I think Phillip Rivers is an idiot, but his talent is undeniable. No QB in the game, as I've said, makes as many high risk passes in a season as Rivers makes in a game. Manning is a great passer, and his one Super Bowl is reminiscent of another great passer in Marino. The game usually requires a great QB for consistent team greatness. Favre has his one ring in two appearances. However there is a reason that the '96 upset of the Jacksonville Jags over the Broncos is considered one of the greatest upsets of all time. That '96 Packers team wasn't nearly as good as the '97 team, and a Super Bowl between the Broncos and Packers in '96 would have been very different than the weak fight the inferior Patriots put up.
Elway making magic at Stanford is very similar to what Cutler did at Vanderbilt. The difference in their careers is that when arrogant control obsessed coaches went to Bowlen with a trade in hand to trade the QB (Reeves wanting to get rid of Elway and McMistake wanting to trade Cutler), Bowlen knew enough to understand that the franchise was QB, not the head coach. The problem this time around is that Bowlen can't even admittedly remember as far back as the Super Bowl years due to memory loss...
Never forget that Mike Shanahan was fired the very day that Woody Paige ran his column saying that Shanahan should fire Bowlen. Paige, Kizla, and the rest of the hacks at the RMN and Denver Post had been trying to get Shanahan fired for years. Woody finally succeeded when Bowlen had become old enough, vain enough, and senile enough to actually believe that he's in charge, as he kept telling everyone at the press conference, apparently trying to convince himself.
I'm not saying Cutler is Elway, far from it, but he already is a great QB. The last great QB to carry bad teams to even play competitively was Elway. There hasn't been a great QB/Bad team since.
Brady/Rothlisberger/Favre have all been on absolutely great teams. When those teams falter so do they. The Broncos used win with Elway, as the expression went so goes Elway as goes the Broncos. The same was true with Cutler, and is now with the Bears.
I can't help convince those of you that are casual fans with only a limited understanding of the NFL game. Most of you probably think that Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders were comparable talents.
I'll make the same argument about the RBs as I made about the QBs, put Smith in Detroit and Barry in Dallas and what do you think would happen?
Had Elway played in San Francisco, Dallas, NY, or Buffalo instead of Denver how many Super Bowls would he have really won? We'll never know? However even though the Broncos had more busted draft picks during his career than even Matt Millen had in Detroit they managed to play at the highest level because of the talent of the QB.
Cutler is that "kind" of QB, if not at that talent level.
Five years from now McDaniels will be recognized as the fraud he already is. Knowshon Moreno won't have a starting job, and neither will Orton, the Broncos will have a new coach and be completely irrelevant, and Jay Cutler will be amongst the best QBs in the NFL.
He already is, but you just don't know it yet.
If your team can't run the ball, has one of the worst defenses in the NFL, is completely dependent on you to make plays in the passing game and to run out of the QB position, if you don't have any WRs with skill that can get open or make plays, and if the defense is terrible what do you call it when your QB gets you to 7-9?
If your team has one of the league's most dominating defenses (especially against the pass in this Nintendo era of passing), has the best skill position players in the NFL, and one of the best offensive lines, the best LT in the game protecting your blind side, and you have an "offensive genius" for a coach, what do you call it when your QB gets you to 8-8?
Cutler and the Bears are the first example. Orton and the Broncos the second...
Oh yeah, and one more time in case anyone missed it. Cutler's Bears offense scored more than the loaded Broncos offense with McMistake and Orton running the show.
Give Cutler a season where he doesn't have to score on every single possession in order to have a chance at winning the game and let's...you know...see what happens.
Then again, why don't all you just go back to rooting for your favorite colors (teams) and not understand why "we didn't win" when your favorite teams lose...
and to you Duck, I can't believe how disingenuous you can be.
I made a simple point that Cutler's offense (with nothing) scored more points than the Bronco's offense. You replied that the difference was only one point. I then pointed out that the Broncos defense scored multiple times during the season, and that my point specifically mentioned offensive points (not combined) Points For. You now are trying to minimize the distinction, and having a tantrum demanding FACTS (I can actually envision you stamping your foot when you type FACTS angrily). :p
Um...I think I'm done arguing with you. I'm embarrassed that you're a fan of my favorite team. Then again I'm not surprised, the johnny come lately crowd at new Mile High walks out in the third quarter if the Broncos aren't winning, won't show up to support an 8-8 team, and has less football intellect than the average mom sitting in the stands watching pee-wee football.
Brandon Marshall had it right a long time ago, Broncos fans really aren't anything that they are purported to be. Those of us that have been season ticket holder for more than fifteen years can vividly see the difference. There is a reason that the old guard have given up their tickets. Its just not the same anymore.
Now with McMistake at the helm, it never will be again. Mark my words, this franchise is in completely disarray and its only year one.
Listen to 850 KOA or read the Denver Post. Pay attention to the desperate spin they already were having to sell to keep people interested and the Broncos relevant. You won't find intelligent analysis, but something closer to a sales pitch.
I'm divorcing myself from this thread. I'm an idiot to have even engaged with you, proving the old adage that when you argue with a fool bystanders can't identify which is the fool.
I'm checking out, this has been completely ridiculous...
I would have been better off trying to teach my raiding squirrel to count his nuts.
http://imgur.com/F6mUD.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Mightyzug
That was vicious!
http://www.rtvchannel.tv/wp-content/...id-vicious.jpg
omg I beat you to posting a pic! Do I win!?Quote:
Originally Posted by BenFink
Honestly, all I read was "Ben isn't that good" and didn't bother with everything else since you were talking to OD, along with the fact they were execesively long, so sorry that I missed the point.
Stop it with the personal insults, especially when you put words in my mouth. I never claimed Ben and Terry were the two best QBs ever. I'm saying you are underrating the abilities of Ben and Terry, and since you pointed them out, Brady and Favre.