Just came up on ESPN He was agreed to in Principal to be traded to the Bears
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Just came up on ESPN He was agreed to in Principal to be traded to the Bears
Damn, didn't want to see him there.
Yes!!!!!!!!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4037373
Kyle Orton will be your starter. sorry Bronco fans.
I wish the Bears had kept Orton as a backup---he really isn't that bad of a player...however Cutler is a huge upgrade!
Stupid Chicago....
Wow... I really, really hate this trade. We gave up WAY too much. TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS!?? What were the Bears thinking!?
One of the worst parts of this is that the Bears sat idly while all the free agents were snatched up, and now they've lost 2 of their first 3 picks in this draft.
I actually liked Kyle Orton. He showed flashes at times of being a very good QB.
This absolutely stinks. Maybe this season can be salvaged if they pick up Holt and Pace to replace what they could have drafted.
I'm absolutely beside myself.
a coup by the broncos
Pace just signed(!), so, one down, one to go...Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
Its about time the Bears went after a Pro bowl caliber player. I loved Orton but he was never going to be as good as Cutler and wasn't going to lead them to a championship. They finally have a super bowl caliber QB, the first since Mc Mahon.
They have also signed Pace to help the line and now they need to get a WR.
I like Orton. People in Colorado are flipping **** because they think he is horrible. But hell, what did they expect? Tom Brady?
Two first round picks is what the Broncos demanded and the Bears and Redskins were the only teams willing to give them up.
2 1sts, a 3rd & a qb to start til a young one is ready to take over...like i said, a steal for the broncosQuote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by etothep
Point is: we have two first round picks in this draft now. The defense is already being rebuilt and that was our main concern.
If Orton does so terribly we have Chris Simms to back him up and he's not exactly horrible (not exactly good either but meh).
Bronco fans expect a Super Bowl every single season. It's stupid. I almost hate to align myself with them.
I think each team got a pretty good deal out of this. The Bears got a QB who can be franchise type that they have not had in a very long time. The Broncos go a QB who did pretty well last year and a couple of first rounders. Now in this years draft they can stockpile their D because of the 2 first rounders they'll have.
This makes the Cassel deal look even stranger though. The bears could have had him for only a 1st round pick I would think.
Cassel's contract scare teams away, 1 year 14 mil? maybe you lose him next year.
Or am I over rating his upside?
overrating his upside plus the bidding war for cutler drove his asking price upQuote:
Originally Posted by acetoolguy
fixed it for ya :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reade
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Either way its been a long time
I hated this at first (see my earlier post). While riding the clattering el home from work earlier, causing this to jolt around in my mind and finally settle in, I began to realize that while the Broncos gain a lot from this, the Bears also stand to benefit.
1) The Bears lose two first round picks. It sounds like a lot, but the Bears are terrible with first round picks. For some reason, Angelo can score big in later rounds, but he's a terrible first round drafter.
2) The Bears gain a young QB, and while he is not Brady, Manning or Brees, he's easily at the very top of the second tier of QBs. He's exceptionally mobile and athletic, he has a cannon for an arm (an accurate one at that), and he can only get better. On top of this, he's healthy. And he played under Shanahan (couldn't possibly hurt a guy's experience). I do not see him as a crybaby. There's no way of knowing whether he was in the right or wrong the way he handled things with the Broncos, but I don't think it's a complete indictment on his character that he demanded a trade.
Earlier on ESPN, Mark Schlereth criticized his leadership, and claimed that Orton had gained the respect of the team and had become a leader. I say, so what? Leader of what? A below average offense? I LOVE Orton, and I think he has a potentially great future, but Cutler is undeniably more talented. This signals a complete makeover of the offense.
3) The Bears simultaneously signed a tackle, who, if healthy, can be among the best in the league. They've also shown that they might actually be committed to building a winning team after all. The Cutler move shows that the front office is focused on the immediate future, which leads me to believe the signing of a WR (Holt? Harrison?) may not be far off, and that they could be a big player in next year's FA market.
4) The Bear defense, while weak last year, is still only a couple of years removed from being the league's best defense. There's no denying they have the talent that still has them at or near the top of the league defensively.
5) Cutler fits Turner's offense better than pretty much any QB out there could.
6) Forte has already proven that he's an excellent RB, and can only get better. The Bears are now well above average in terms of QB and RB. They have a physical freak of a playmaker in Hester (who can't outrun Cutler's arm like he did Orton's), the NFL's best TE duo, and an offensive line which should be better than the 2008 OL.
7) The Bears are no longer in need of a tackle with the addition of Shaffer and Pace, and with Williams set to more or less make his NFL debut. Their second round pick can be used on a WR, or depth for the defense.
8) Orton was set to walk after a good 2009 anyway, and there are no QBs of Cutler's caliber coming up in the draft in 2009 or 2010, and it doesn't look like there's one coming up in free agency next season.
I guess I like the trade. I'm excited and kinda scared at the same time. If the Bears play their cards right from here on out, they've got great chances. I think they're already at least neck-and-neck with Minnesota right now in terms of being the favorite for the NFC Central in 2009. I think the offense will be in the top third of NFL offenses, granted that they find a couple of receivers to go along with Cutler, Forte, and those top notch tight ends.
Go Bears!
Nice post there Joe, but I have to say a good QB and RB is nothing without the offensive line, and its looking like they are trying to make a great unit out there.
They should be able to land a good WR in the 2nd round, as that is probably on of the deepest positions in the draft this year. I really wish the Vikings would have made a greater effort to get him. Oh well, I'll see what Sage gives us.
Mark Schlereth doesn't think the Broncs will win 5 games this year.
So apprarently, with Cutler we make the playoffs. Without him we're as bad as Oakland.
Interesting.
The OL could be a crapshoot, but there's still a lot of time between now and September. They're at least average AND deep at tackle with Pace, Williams and Shaffer, and could potentially be excellent (if they're blessed with good health). They're average at guard, and they still have a good center.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
One good thing about the good QB/RB combo is that it takes some pressure off the line. In the past, opposing defenses could stack things upfront because the Bears were weak in the passing game. Now, they can't. Also, keep in mind that the Bears tend to play a lot of 2 TE sets, which also takes pressure off the line, and strengthens things up front.
One last thing... Cutler is the kind of QB that can make an average line look better than they really are with his ability to stay alive in the pocket.
The Bears don't have a BAD line (like they did in 2007), and last year their line overachieved. The talent should be better in '09, which leads me to believe that, at worst, they're average or slightly above, and at best, they're well above average.
They'll pick up a lineman or two in the draft (probably in the 4th and 5th rounds), and could still add a body or two for depth.
Overall, Denver wins this trade. 2 firsts AND a third, and having bonus 1st and 3rd rounder this year basically means they can move anywhere they want in the draft, or trade for a vet they want now. Orton isn't great, BUT playing in a quick pass offense that seems to fit his skills, and throwing to Marshall and Royal, isn't going to hurt him at all.
As for Capt. Whiner...good luck putting up 4500 yards throwing to Earl Bennett and Devin Hester. And now they can't draft a receiver to step in. Let's not forget that the Bears defense was NOT all that great last year and they really can't work on it now, either. The Pace signing is okay...except he hasn't made it through even half a year in, what now, THREE seasons? The only good part of this for Chi Town is that they get Cutler on his rookie deal which pays him less than $2 mil per year for this year and the next two after this one, and he's really in no position to demand a rework of his contract.
Joe, I think you're seriously deluding yourself on Pace. Sure, he was one of the best in the league...6-7 years ago. He was released for a reason. Even if he stays healthy, a huge if, he's still barely an above average tackle at this point in his career
Believe me, I have absolutely NO illusions concerning the Bears' offensive line. I'm as skeptical as anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by etothep
Pace was a Pro Bowler and All NFC selection as recently as 2005, and a first team All Pro as recently as 2004. He's missed a great deal of the time since then due to injury... therefore, we can't really draw any conclusions about the quality of his play, we can only conclude that he's been an injury risk recently.
I'm not dumb; I do understand that this isn't the same Orlando Pace as 9 or 10 years ago, but I also understand he's one of the most experienced tackles in the league, he's a future Hall of Famer, and a team that's been very hesitant about signing free agents this season has been bold enough to sign him for THREE years. The main reason he was released, by the way, is cap space.
Like I implied in my last post in this thread... give the Bears an average offensive line, and they will have an above average offense.
Come on now... what do YOU say if your NEW coach walks in out of nowhere and suddenly wants to trade you? I give the guy the benefit of the doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
And Matt Forte, and Desmond Clark and Greg Olsen. BESIDES, the offseason isn't over, and the Bears still have time to sign/draft WRs, which they are almost guaranteed to do. No, he won't pass for 4500, probably not even 4000, but with this signing and with last year's offense, there is nowhere to go but UP.Quote:
good luck putting up 4500 yards throwing to Earl Bennett and Devin Hester.
Wrong... they're actually in the best spot possible to draft one. They wouldn't have gotten anyone in Round 1 that would have been all that much better than Round 2. Very deep WR pool in this draft, most of them starting in the mid Round 2 territory.Quote:
And now they can't draft a receiver to step in.
Cutler has always been a bit of a whiner though. Ever since Vanderbilt.Quote:
Come on now... what do YOU say if your NEW coach walks in out of nowhere and suddenly wants to trade you? I give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
He said the organization was in the "wrong direction" after they fired Shanahan. And that they "better keep the quarterbacks coach around or I will be upset".
These are things better left unsaid to the public eye. He's a bit of a whiner.
I'll sort through your homer talk for now & say you likely won't be worse offensively than you guys were last yearQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
Bears' offensive ranks last season:
Offensive DVOA - 22nd
Weighted Offense - 25th
Passing Offense - 21st
Rushing Offense - 24th
And for what it's worth, Chicago's O-line was average last year (they were in the middle 3rd in most run-blocking metrics including Adjusted Line Yards, Power Success, Times Stuffed, & Runs of 10+ Yards while ranking in the top 3rd in Adjusted Sack Rate).
I guess we'll see if it was Cutler making Royal, Marshall, Scheffler, & Graham look good, if he looked good cause he had them as targets or, most likely, a mixture of both
I'd still much prefer being on the Broncos end of that deal by a wide margin (assuming they don't Jarvis Moss these 2 first rounders they picked up)
Joe12pack should have the definitive statement on this trade. His last few posts were succinct, clear and dead on!
I was very skeptical that the Bears could pull this off, and was quite pleasantly surprised that they managed this. I see no downside at all to this deal. The Bears get a franchise QB for 10 or so years for a low price.
And none of that explains his ridiculous behavior this offseason...he asks for a trade, then gets pissed off when the team looks to trade him. Shows all the emotional maturity of a 5 year old who REALLY wants that toy that mommy won't buy him (Fine! You won't stroke my ego? I'll stay away from the team until my face turns blue!), then the owner says "Fine, we're done with you." at which point he comes back and starts making these stupid claims of never wanting to be traded, ever? I'm sorry, this idiot is an immature, whiny little entitled douche that I hope is sacked out of the league in 2 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
I don't follow the game like others here, but I got the same "what an immature way to act" when I followed this too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
And it's got me wondering. Can an NFL quarterback really be that good if he's that immature??? Doesn't the position require, I dunno, leadership and respect??
A few points:
1) Showing optimism about a trade my team made, especially one which so obviously improves the offense, doesn't automatically qualify as "homer talk." I'm more than willing to admit when I am being a homer, this time isn't one of them. ;)
2) The Chicago offensive line was average last season, and can only improve this season. The tackle play will be significantly better with Tait retiring, with the average St. Clair leaving, and bringing in the experienced vet in Pace, depth in Shaffer, and with Williams playing his first full season.
3) The Chicago WR corps cannot be any worse than last season. I sense that they will sign one of the veterans available (they pretty much have to), and will spend their 2nd pick on someone else to add to this group.
4) The Bronco offense is not that much better than the Bear offense, and the only position in which they have a clear advantage is WR1 with Marshall. The Bears have better tight ends, probably a slightly better running game, and HAD a worse line, overall, in '08. I don't see much difference between the two lines in '09. Cutler will easily surpass 3500 yards, and as I mentioned before, he is much better suited for the Turner offense and for Hester. His ability to hit Hester deep, alone (where Orton couldn't), will easily supply an additional 25 yards per game, assuming he can hit him for 50 yards every other game - not that much to ask.
5) Trades are not a zero sum game. There is no "winner" or "loser." Often, one team does better on account of the trade, but often, both teams "lose" or "win" with it. The Broncos did very, very well, and this trade makes sense for them. But this trade makes sense for the Bears as well. I'd rather the Bears gain a proven commodity with their first round picks instead of wasting them on junk. The last successful first round pick the Bears made was Brian Urlacher. This also saves the Bears a lot of money. They got a GREAT deal on Cutler, where Orton may very well have walked after next season, AND... they don't have to spend money on first round picks for the next two seasons. A few blessings in disguise...
6) I see the Bears as a 9 or 10 win team as things currently stand. This is not delusional, as they won 9 last season (and could have easily won 11), and can only be better in '09. I also believe this number stands to improve. The Bears are one signing and one sensible 2nd round pick away from being an 11 win team, and a neck-and-neck favorite for the division along with the Vikings.
7) We have no way of knowing what kind of "leader" Cutler is, or what kind of maturity he has. The experts don't even really know. I think it becomes a moot point until it shows itself on the field in a tangible way. I do believe the Bears lost some leadership by letting go of Orton, but the offense was poor, the offense is in transition, and the offense needs to be turned around. What value does a leader of a bunch of junk have?
Broncos have the advantage on O-line, TE & WR (they're #2, Royal, would be the Bears' #1)
Both Denver TE's rated higher last year, statistically, than Chicago's, Denver's top 2 WRs rated higher statistically than any Chicago receiver & Denver's O-line was unquestionably better last year
Again, haven't paid much attention to any Denver line changes, but unless they lost at least 1 starter, I'd be suprised if they were worse than Chicago's this year.
And in an attempt to avert any confusion, I'm measuring TE & WR success by means of DYAR & DVOA (metrics which take into account a player's opposition and game situation, comparing them to replacement level and average position players at that position).
As for winners & losers, you're right, not all trades are zero sum. The Champ Bailey/Clinton Portis trade was pretty even in my eyes. However, you can't tell me that the Chargers didn't win in their trade with the Giants (Rivers, Merriman and Kaeding for Eli) or the infamous Herschel Walker trade just to name a few
Not trying to troll or be an ass, just don't think your hopes should be as high as they seem to be is all (feel free to bring this back up if the Bears make a playoff run or anything down the road)
I'm not really a football metrics guy, because too much of football performance is dependent upon other players. I'd be willing to put up $20 that Chicago's TEs perform better in '09 according to any measurement, than Denver's did in '08.Quote:
Originally Posted by etothep
Royal may be talented, but we'll have to see how he does with Orton throwing the ball to him, and we'll have to see how Hester does with Cutler. Once again, I'm thinking there's a complete reversal, and that Hester outperforms Royal.
I don't think I have very high hopes... it's not like I'm talking Super Bowl. Hell, I'm not even favoring the Bears for the division. I think they're in a dead heat with Minnesota right now. Like I said, I'm thinking 9 or 10 wins... I am barely pegging them to be above .500.
They won 9 games last season... How is predicting the same, or 1 win better, with the current roster, having high hopes!?? :)
I know you're not trying to troll or be an ass. I enjoy discussion like this.
I'm still referring to your Pace hopes. Obviously I think you guys upgraded at QBQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
It's less about Pace and more about Pace + Shaffer + Williams.Quote:
Originally Posted by etothep
Pace/Williams/Shaffer > St. Clair/Tait... by a wide margin.
If it were only Pace, I wouldn't be as confident. But Pace can teach Williams a thing or two, and Shaffer adds depth (especially important in the event that Pace goes down).
I like the Pace signing a lot, because it has potential to be a huge win for the Bears, without a great deal of risk. I also think Cutler takes some pressure off the line, because he's more adept at moving around in the pocket, and because he opens up some of the Bear passing options.
It'll be interesting to see what happens from here on out. The Bears do have the potential to become a good-to-great offense, with the right (minor) moves.
All in all, I'd conclude this whole conversation by saying that I'm really happy the Bears finally have a QB that has high level, proven physical talent. You have no idea how this feels for us Bear fans... :)
The Broncos offense was a top five offense in 2008. Without Cutler they still have the potential to be a better half offense with the "amoeba" offense that McDaniels has. Their offensive line was considerably better in 2008 and didn't lose a starter. Jay Cutler was sacked 11 times. Kyle Orton? 27. The Broncos offensive line is a considerable amount better then the Bears. At least in terms of pass protection...which I assume is the most relevant in a discussion on quarterbacks.
Cutler without a talent like Brandon Marshall is something to be wary of. He went to Marshall a consistent amount of times in the 2008 season. Enough to be wary of what it would be like without great play from his wideouts. Eddie Royal will obviously see a drop in production because not only will the offense NOT be run and gun like it was in 2008 but he won't have the deep ball threat QB like he had. But no doubt if he were on the Bears he would be the #1 WR.
Royal was a short route receiver anyway, so losing a guy with a ballistic missile launcher for an arm doesn't really hurt him that badly. Hester could be a REALLY good big play guy this year with Cutler, I agree with that, but I think he'll also probably drop the ball 25 times. And the question is, do the Bears have the pass protection to run a bunch of long routes? Shaffer and Pace REALLY beef up the run blocking, but Shaffer was never much of a pass protector and Pace's injuries have all been of the variety that tends to affect quickness (achilles, knee ligaments).
Chicago gets a great bargain at QB THIS year...however, if Cutler puts up good numbers I find it very hard to believe he'll be content playing for the equivalent of peanuts (and in that I wouldn't really be able to argue with him). Denver gets a guy who can run that ball control attack they plan to run, and they load up on draft picks to use on defense (which they desperately need). THAT is actually where I think the Bears will miss those picks more. Chicago's defensive line is actually pretty bad at generating a pass rush and their secondary flat out stank last season. Figuring they likely use their one first day pick on a receiver, though...that doesn't leave much to help that D.
11 is a freak number. 27 is actually pretty damn good. How much of the 16 sack differential comes from the quality of opponents' defense, and from the ability of the QB to evade sacks? Cutler is easily among the best QBs in the entire NFL - possibly THE best (in terms of pocket passers) - at evading sacks. He's almost Youngesque in his ability to move in the pocket. Orton is slow and not very athletic.Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989
Not "wary of" in the way that Orton or Grossman are. Cutler now has even more options, actually, in dump off routes in Olsen, Clark, and most importantly, Forte, than he had in Denver.Quote:
Cutler without a talent like Brandon Marshall is something to be wary of.
Marshall is superior to any option the Bears have, of course, and again, Cutler now has more check down options. Like I said many times already, Turner + Cutler is a great combo. Turner runs the type of offense that makes sense for a guy like Cutler... get it off deep to Hester or Olsen, and if that isn't there, dump it off quickly to Forte or Clark.Quote:
He went to Marshall a consistent amount of times in the 2008 season.
While I agree Royal's production will decline, I think Orton could actually be a great fit for the Bronco offense. Don't be surprised if Orton approaches 4000 passing yards in Denver. He is well experienced in the shotgun, as it's all he ran at Purdue, and it's where he excelled in the passing game in Chicago.Quote:
Eddie Royal will obviously see a drop in production because not only will the offense NOT be run and gun like it was in 2008 but he won't have the deep ball threat QB like he had.
I think it depends largely on the QB. I think Royal and Hester would be 1A and 1B in the same scheme.Quote:
But no doubt if he were on the Bears he would be the #1 WR.
That's an exaggeration... Hester actually has surprisingly great hands for a guy who is a converted CB/PR. Yes, he drops his fair share of balls, but he won't drop 25 passes this season, and probably won't even drop 15. And yeah, he can be a very, very good big play WR with a QB that actually has an accurate deep arm. In fact, I could see Hester developing into one of the all time great deep threat WRs with the proper QB, based on his ability to outrun any CB in the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
Last season, the Bear OL overachieved in terms of providing pass protection, so it's conceivable the new line could provide Cutler enough time to hit Hester. Also, Turner runs a great deal of deep routes on a per game basis, so there's plenty of chances to strike deep.Quote:
And the question is, do the Bears have the pass protection to run a bunch of long routes? Shaffer and Pace REALLY beef up the run blocking, but Shaffer was never much of a pass protector and Pace's injuries have all been of the variety that tends to affect quickness (achilles, knee ligaments).
The key here is Williams, who is projected as a great blocker in both the run and the pass. Huge question mark, since he is coming off and injury, and has practically no NFL experience. Still, I like the depth, and it's an improvement over St. Clair and Tait.
As they are a young team, and ignoring the fact that Angelo is a horrible high round drafter, I don't think the Bears will miss those picks until at least 3 years from now.Quote:
Chicago gets a great bargain at QB THIS year...however, if Cutler puts up good numbers I find it very hard to believe he'll be content playing for the equivalent of peanuts (and in that I wouldn't really be able to argue with him). Denver gets a guy who can run that ball control attack they plan to run, and they load up on draft picks to use on defense (which they desperately need). THAT is actually where I think the Bears will miss those picks more. Chicago's defensive line is actually pretty bad at generating a pass rush and their secondary flat out stank last season. Figuring they likely use their one first day pick on a receiver, though...that doesn't leave much to help that D.
I both agree and disagree with you about the Chicago DL... they're bad at some things, great at other things. The interior is very strong, and the line as a whole is spectacular against the run. Alex Brown is one of the most underrated defenders in the NFL, and is definitely a top-5 DE against the run. The problem is their inability to rush the passer. But they have guys who have been able, historically, to rush the QB, in Ogunleye and Anderson. That said, I think their second biggest weakness, as a team, is their inability to put pressure on the QB consistently.
I see the Bear secondary as the team's biggest weakness, but it's another area where they have loads of talent, albeit underachieving talent.
The Bear defense is better than it showed it was last season, but nowhere near the squad it was a few years ago. Still, I think they've got a defense that is somewhere around 10th best in the NFL, talent-wise, and if they can stay healthy, combined with an improved offense, the Bears are certainly in contention for an NFC title for 2009.
Also, you can't deny this team's uncanny ability to win/steal games by sheer luck and will. Being a Bear fan is heartbreaking, but we have a rollercoaster ride that no other fan will ever experience... for 6 or 7 years running, this team has played 90% of its game tight, thrilling, and insane, from start to finish, winning many games it shouldn't have, and losing many games that it should have won. The entire team is freakish in that respect. As long as the Bears have strong talent and a decent team all around, they will compete.